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  #31  
Old 11-04-2009, 09:14 AM
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He didn't feel that way the first 2 seasons of the show.

Picard, and to a lesser extent, Sisko got great development. They tried with Janeway.
I felt Picard and Sisko got a lot of filling out and a large amount of depth added to their characters. The main obvious change in Picards personality to me was liking children slightly more by the end and coming to terms with his relationship with Crusher. Sisko changes a lot I guess, going from hating his role as the Emissary to accepting then embracing it, a definite arc there.

I meant mainly that Archer shows the biggest change in his core character compared to the other captains, though you're right, not so much in the first couple of seasons.

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While DS9's story-arcs are obvious in the later seasons, ENT looks like TNG 3.0 on the surface and the character-arcs, the relevance of chronology becomes only apparent after one has watched the show in order.
Makes a lot of sense, especially up to the end of season 2 ENT eps have a much more subtle continuity which like you say needs to be watched in order to be appreciated.
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  #32  
Old 11-04-2009, 09:14 AM
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I think he changes gradually, e.g. he recognizes T'Pol skills at the end of the pilot or learns the equivalent of the Prime Directive from Phlox in the first season.
But the experiences with the Xindi have most likely had the profoundest impact upon him as he learns to take enemies seriously and forge alliances whenever possible. One could claim that the Xindi crisis is a precursor of the Romulan War in terms of these two elements, fight for your survival together with those who are also (perhaps more mildly) threatened.
I would say that is a fair assessment. But I would argue that he have learned the rudiments of what became the prime directive from Vulcan non-interferance directives (not that they really bothered using their own directives). I would say Pholx would have helped him undertsand them from an emotional standpoint.
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  #34  
Old 11-04-2009, 11:10 AM
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Absolutely, I just mentioned Phlox because 'Dear Doctor' is a memorable episode with a big decision and far-reaching consequences. T'Pol certainly had a less drastic but more constant influence upon him.
The influences of the Vulcans is evident.
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Old 11-04-2009, 11:31 AM
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I would say that is a fair assessment. But I would argue that he have learned the rudiments of what became the prime directive from Vulcan non-interferance directives (not that they really bothered using their own directives). I would say Pholx would have helped him undertsand them from an emotional standpoint.
In which case, it could explain why the Federation also implemented the PD at it's own discretion rather than as an absolute of conduct.
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  #36  
Old 11-05-2009, 05:31 AM
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In which case, it could explain why the Federation also implemented the PD at it's own discretion rather than as an absolute of conduct.
Might have been a concession to get the Vulcans to join?
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  #37  
Old 11-05-2009, 09:05 AM
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The influences of the Vulcans is evident.
You are right, the Vulcans are the clearest proponents of the PD and they furthermore lacked any desire to conduct deep-space missions, to explore the galaxy beyond their doorstep.
Humans on the other hand were (too) eager to see what's out there. So a part of the conflict between them was not pure PD but also related to the differing exploration concepts.
Obviously they learned from each other and Vulcan society changed after the Kir'Shara incident.

The Denobulans on the other hand, or at least Phlox, seemed to be as curious as humans, that's why I found it important that they are also PD proponents, not at least to prevent the impression that it is just an issue between humans and Vulcans.
It rather seemed to be a matter of experience, once you wade in the waters of space and meet other lifeforms you have to open your mind and learn that your moral and ethics are yours and not theirs.
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  #38  
Old 11-05-2009, 09:13 AM
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You are right, the Vulcans are the clearest proponents of the PD and they furthermore lacked any desire to conduct deep-space missions, to explore the galaxy beyond their doorstep.
Humans on the other hand were (too) eager to see what's out there. So a part of the conflict between them was not pure PD but also related to the differing exploration concepts.
Obviously they learned from each other and Vulcan society changed after the Kir'Shara incident.

The Denobulans on the other hand, or at least Phlox, seemed to be as curious as humans, that's why I found it important that they are also PD proponents, not at least to prevent the impression that it is just an issue between humans and Vulcans.
It rather seemed to be a matter of experience, once you wade in the waters of space and meet other lifeforms you have to open your mind and learn that your moral and ethics are yours and not theirs.

I never got the feel that the Denobulans really had a fleet of exploratory ships, even though they clearly had realtions with many races. Makes me wonder if they ever did....
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  #39  
Old 11-05-2009, 09:27 AM
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Unlike the four Federation founding members, they did not seem to have political tensions with their neighbours at the moment, but in "The Breach" we learned a bit about a historical long-lasting conflict between Denobula and another planet.
I guess they stayed in the neighbourhood like the Vulcans, probably because of stories about not-so-nice empires who can easily be pissed off. But Archer did not want to listen.
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  #40  
Old 11-05-2009, 10:52 AM
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Unlike the four Federation founding members, they did not seem to have political tensions with their neighbours at the moment, but in "The Breach" we learned a bit about a historical long-lasting conflict between Denobula and another planet.
I guess they stayed in the neighbourhood like the Vulcans, probably because of stories about not-so-nice empires who can easily be pissed off. But Archer did not want to listen.
I just having a hard time picturing a Denobulan military force...

So Archer inadvertantly started the Federation/Klingon Hostilites?

Wonder if the Klingons took a side in the Earth/Romulan wars?
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