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  #21  
Old 10-11-2009, 10:09 AM
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The original idea stemmed from certain quarters complaints that the new film took too much from 'Star Wars' and that's not popular with them. The counter to that is merely that 'Star Trek' is no more fully original itself because it's used many, many other sources over the years.

The simple fact is in that context one man's 'inspiration' is another's 'rip-off' - same thing, different POV only.

So, we can either embrace the fact that Star Trek 'uses' these things in it's own way or be annoyed over it. Personally it doesn't annoy me when they do it, but it does - as far as I'm concerned - invalidate any particular criticisms that there's a Star Wars element here and there.

Unless, of course, it's sour grapes that Star Trek found itself in the position of having to take a couple of cues from a vastly successful film in order to help get itself back on track.
Well told.
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  #22  
Old 10-11-2009, 10:23 AM
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The original idea stemmed from certain quarters complaints that the new film took too much from 'Star Wars' and that's not popular with them. The counter to that is merely that 'Star Trek' is no more fully original itself because it's used many, many other sources over the years.

The simple fact is in that context one man's 'inspiration' is another's 'rip-off' - same thing, different POV only.

So, we can either embrace the fact that Star Trek 'uses' these things in it's own way or be annoyed over it. Personally it doesn't annoy me when they do it, but it does - as far as I'm concerned - invalidate any particular criticisms that there's a Star Wars element here and there.

Unless, of course, it's sour grapes that Star Trek found itself in the position of having to take a couple of cues from a vastly successful film in order to help get itself back on track.
For me, a rip-off is when credit isn't given to the original source, sort of like plagerism, when you use an author's words without giving him credit. If you change something slightly in the wording, it's no longer a rip-off, only inspiration.

So when Data is Sherlock Holmes, or Picard is Dixon Hill, that is not rip-off, only inspiration. Also, when we have so many Voyager storylines based on Freudian ideas, or so many Next Generation storylines based on Orignal Series episodes and characters, that is also inspiration, not rip-off. Unless you want to accuse Trek of ripping itself off.
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  #23  
Old 10-11-2009, 10:51 AM
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For me, a rip-off is when credit isn't given to the original source, sort of like plagerism, when you use an author's words without giving him credit. If you change something slightly in the wording, it's no longer a rip-off, only inspiration.

So when Data is Sherlock Holmes, or Picard is Dixon Hill, that is not rip-off, only inspiration. Also, when we have so many Voyager storylines based on Freudian ideas, or so many Next Generation storylines based on Orignal Series episodes and characters, that is also inspiration, not rip-off. Unless you want to accuse Trek of ripping itself off.
I've actually made that accusation before anyway and I fully stand by it. It's not a complaint really, I just think it's reasonable to acknowledge.

TMP is a variation of 'Changling', Nemesis is a variation of TWOK, and if I spent enough time looking them up, there would probably be more instances, not counting the several instances that TOS used the same ending of the appearance of a 'higher entity' to solve the storyline they had written themselves into ('Charlie X', 'Errand of Mercy' and 'The Squire of Gothos' off the top of my head).

Anyway, is any of this really fatal in terms of ability in enjoying Star Trek? No*, of course not.

I simply accept they've done it before and likely will again. It's just sometimes the source of some 'inspirations' that seem to affect some more than others. Which, I guess is fair comment, just perplexing sometimes as well.




*This actually does not apply to Nemesis - I rarely bother with it as a result of it being an inferior version.
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Last edited by kevin : 10-11-2009 at 11:21 AM.
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  #24  
Old 10-12-2009, 01:54 PM
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Originality is no virtue, quality is.

To adress the two TWOK "rip-offs", NEM does not suck because it has some superficial similarities and ST09 does not work because it repeats some TWOK formulae.
But if one wants to play the comparison game, Khan is fluently written whereas Shinzon's as well as Nero's motivation are fairly vague. One can think around the corner and explain them, but that's not subtext but filling the gaps.
So these two characters don't work because they are Khan-copies, there have been plenty of fictional genocidal madman before Khan, but because they are not as well written as he is.
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  #25  
Old 10-12-2009, 01:57 PM
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In fairness, Nero's motivation are fairly vague because the movie really isn't about him at all, but the crew.
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  #26  
Old 10-12-2009, 01:58 PM
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Like The Voyage Home, we know next to nothing about the probe. We don't need to, the movie isn't about the probe.
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  #28  
Old 10-12-2009, 01:59 PM
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Sure, that's why Shinzon draws NEM strongly down whereas Nero does not.
Absolutely.
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  #29  
Old 10-12-2009, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Originality is no virtue, quality is.

To adress the two TWOK "rip-offs", NEM does not suck because it has some superficial similarities and ST09 does not work because it repeats some TWOK formulae.
But if one wants to play the comparison game, Khan is fluently written whereas Shinzon's as well as Nero's motivation are fairly vague. One can think around the corner and explain them, but that's not subtext but filling the gaps.
So these two characters don't work because they are Khan-copies, there have been plenty of fictional genocidal madman before Khan, but because they are not as well written as he is.
I think that's part of the problem - for me Nemesis has neither originality nor quality. Obviously everyone has a different definition of quality but there's just nothing new in that film and what is there isn't well done. Now, I know that the same thing can be said for the new film and that's fair comment, yet it's by far a more entertaining couple of hours in the cinema.

Star Trek works better in that sense because there is a better director at work making it all flow into a seamlessly energetic couple of hours, instead of the leaden NEM.

That said, I think that Montalban is part of what elevates Khan above the ordinary - his core motivation is not much different from Nero (death of his wife sends him on a mission against the person he holds responsible) and certainly much of Khan's actual dialogue in the film is not of the highest quality.

That Khan expresses that more clearly and is played by an actor who can make sometimes iffy dialogue genuine (always a plus when casting Star Trek at times) is what lifts him and makes him more memorable.
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Last edited by kevin : 10-12-2009 at 10:29 PM.
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  #30  
Old 10-13-2009, 01:08 AM
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Borg Collective = Cybermen. One of the bigger 'references', I feel.
And on a similarly Borg-related note, Unimatrix Zero is quite clearly a blatant re-hash of The Matrix. Although Doctor Who also once featured a vast, fully-immersive computer simulation called The Matrix, but that's a different story entirely...
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