[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain

My guess is your right. No matter what you do your ship is lost because like Zardoz mentioned:The whole theme of TWOK is life and death. Even Spock says "I never took the Kobayashi Maru test until now" as he is facing his own death. Also in ST:III as Kirk watches the Enterprise burn up in the atmosphere and he says "My God, Bones... what have I done?" McCoy replies "What you had to do. What you always do: turn death into a fighting chance to live." Which I'm pretty sure is also a reference to Kirks belief in the no win scenario.

Spock wouldn't have had to take it, since he was not a command canadate in the Academy.

But back on track, Spock showed Kirk that his axium "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" was true by his actions to save the ship.

But TSFS negates all of it by having Kirk throw everything away to try and rescue what remained of Spock. But TWOK/TSFS is in alot of ways about Kirk facing the ultimate no win senarios (Loss of Spock and his son who he just reuinted with.)

[Arctus Baran]

I now think that the Kobayashi Maru scenario is full of bologna!

It would make officers give up too easily.

How many times did Kirk pull a rabbit from his hat
and win the day? Save everyone.

Not chess, Mr. Spock, poker.

Kirk could bluff, cheat, swindle, threaten, win over, out-think, manipulate and fight his way out of any situation.

He knows how to win, just need to push right buttons,
like telling Scotty he's fired unless engines are repaired.

Why crush his spirit to prevent him from doing that?

Sometimes a person can think too much on an action.

Ending of TWOK a little bogus in that Kirk would have
known how to fix the warp drive, he should have ordered
Spock to do it. Other way more dramatic surprise, though.

In reality, Kirk still won, just had to take personal loss, sacrifice.

Kobayashi Maru test should have a 15% chance of
finding positive solution.

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by Arctus Baran

I now think that the Kobayashi Maru scenario is full of bologna!

It would make officers give up too easily.

How many times did Kirk pull a rabbit from his hat
and win the day? Save everyone.

Not chess, Mr. Spock, poker.

Kirk could bluff, cheat, swindle, threaten, win over, out-think, manipulate and fight his way out of any situation.

He knows how to win, just need to push right buttons,
like telling Scotty he's fired unless engines are repaired.

Why crush his spirit to prevent him from doing that?

Sometimes a person can think too much on an action.

Ending of TWOK a little bogus in that Kirk would have
known how to fix the warp drive, he should have ordered
Spock to do it. Other way more dramatic surprise, though.

In reality, Kirk still won, just had to take personal loss, sacrifice.

Kobayashi Maru test should have a 15% chance of
finding positive solution.

[kevin]

Originally Posted by danellis

That's not true: He'd taken the test twice before the one he rigged.

dJE

And what did he do after failing twice? He cheated to get his way.

Now while I accept that that's due to his nature of never seeing the option of defeat, it does mean that he still failed the actual test. As it was originally intended. His 'pass' remains a 'fail' because he didn't genuinely beat the scenario presented through cunning, intelligence, tactical ability or situational analysis.

He couldn't do it without cheating.

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by kevin

And what did he do after failing twice? He cheated to get his way.

Now while I accept that that's due to his nature of never seeing the option of defeat, it does mean that he still failed the actual test. As it was originally intended. His 'pass' remains a 'fail' because he didn't genuinely beat the scenario presented through cunning, intelligence, tactical ability or situational analysis.

He couldn't do it without cheating.

[kevin]

And nobody likes to lose - but sooner or later everyone does, but Kirk did not face the reality of that concept because he was (essentially) pig-headed about the whole thing. He would not countenance a 'no-win' scenario so he ignored it.

Didn't stop him falling when he finally did have to face it.

[Arctus Baran]

I am probably wrong, but in 1982, Kirk cheating was viewed
as a good thing. It seemed in there just for fun and not
to relate it so much to Spock's death or later the loss of David.

In other words, it was not created to rub Kirk's nose in
it when he fails.

When failure comes, it comes, no need to change your
life's view and attitude if your way works 99.9 % of the time.

As they say in Free Enterprise, "....that no reason to give up the
gospel."

Church of Kirk, new converts line begins here.

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by Arctus Baran

I am probably wrong, but in 1982, Kirk cheating was viewed
as a good thing. It seemed in there just for fun and not
to relate it so much to Spock's death or later the loss of David.

In other words, it was not created to rub Kirk's nose in
it when he fails.

When failure comes, it comes, no need to change your
life's view and attitude if your way works 99.9 % of the time.

As they say in Free Enterprise, "....that no reason to give up the
gospel."

Church of Kirk, new converts line begins here.

Even in '82 it wasn't viewed as a "good thing," but it made ok by the fact he got away with it.

[kevin]

Well, it's arguable that the nitty gritty of the KM scenario wasn't really worked out (like, oh, so much of TOS!) and was mostly there to give Meyer his 'fake' death of Spock at the start, to deflect from the real death at the end.

So we're also analysing a scenario not fully explained. Beyon it being a test of character/personality etc.

[OneBuckFilms]

Originally Posted by Arctus Baran

I now think that the Kobayashi Maru scenario is full of bologna!

It would make officers give up too easily.

How many times did Kirk pull a rabbit from his hat
and win the day? Save everyone.

Not chess, Mr. Spock, poker.

Kirk could bluff, cheat, swindle, threaten, win over, out-think, manipulate and fight his way out of any situation.

He knows how to win, just need to push right buttons,
like telling Scotty he's fired unless engines are repaired.

Why crush his spirit to prevent him from doing that?

Sometimes a person can think too much on an action.

Ending of TWOK a little bogus in that Kirk would have
known how to fix the warp drive, he should have ordered
Spock to do it. Other way more dramatic surprise, though.

In reality, Kirk still won, just had to take personal loss, sacrifice.

Kobayashi Maru test should have a 15% chance of
finding positive solution.

I think the Kobayashi Maru is a valuable test and lesson.

In the end, Kirk discovered that one cannot cheat death, in Trek II.

The stubbornness that blinded Kirk to this is also one of the traits that made him a great captain.

He didn't accept failure, he didn't quit. He was persistent, and always tried to find a way.

This dogged determination was a double-edged sword in this way.

I suspect the reason he got a commendation was due to the fact that he found a way that was outside of the avenues obviously available.

On one hand, he cheated. On the other, he was thinking outside the box, to use the groan-inducing metaphore.

The morality of what he did was overridden by it's ingenuity, and he was commended.

It was probably controversial at the time.