[Livingston]

Originally Posted by Commodore

I think it's totally about how well one performs because no matter what everyone dies. Rescuing a civilian ship in distress is just the excuse for why one is violating the Neutral Zone to begin with, I believe. I see the test as being deliberately unfairly rigged so that there is no way to truly to win at all--I would imagine that they would keep sending an endless number of Klingon ships after you--so I think the Kobayashi Maru Scenario is really something of a psych test to see if a cadet keeps his cool or completely crumbles in the face of imminent destruction. To me, how well a cadet commands his crew during such a situation is perhaps an even bigger part of the test.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say that is how the Kobayashi Maru Scenario actually works--nobody really knows that--but that's just my interpretation of it based on what little info we really have on its purpose.

Good point. I think that's an interesting aspect of the test. I mean is there a pass or fail? No, it's as you said a psych test. There is no right or wrong. If you decide to do nothing, the KM will be destoryed; if you decide to try to rescue the KM you and the KM will be destroyed. Which is the right answer? One person approaches the test with loss of life as an objective, another as how well you perform in the face of certain destruction and another changes the conditions of the test so you can save the KM and everyone aboard. Each choice says alot about a person's psychology, which of course is the point of the test.

[TJJones]

Originally Posted by kevin

I did have the theory that, given how easily his deception would be uncovered - given that I would expect the anomalous result of a 'win' to be thoroughly investigated - was that Kirk was possibly trying to also open up discussion of the KM in a wider forum.

But it also ties in with his attitude being that which Pike felt Starfleet had lost (and arguably, this could be veiled reference to the mire of 'safety' that the whole franchise had found itself in by that time).

I agree on both counts

Ultimately, though, in the prime timeline, Starfleet Academy decided the "no-win scenario" remained a viable test of a commander's mettle in the face of almost-certain death (despite implicitly agreeing with Kirk's point). And, while Kirk personally disagreed with the "no-win scenario," he nominally accepted it as a useful "test of character" while he was head of Starfleet Academy.

On a side note, it seems that Spock didn't necessarily create the "no-win scenario," but, instead, created the program that was in use in the 2250s. Who knows how long the name Kobyashi Maru has been in use?

[Enterprise Captain]

Originally Posted by Commodore

I think it's totally about how well one performs because no matter what everyone dies. Rescuing a civilian ship in distress is just the excuse for why one is violating the Neutral Zone to begin with, I believe. I see the test as being deliberately unfairly rigged so that there is no way to truly to win at all--I would imagine that they would keep sending an endless number of Klingon ships after you--so I think the Kobayashi Maru Scenario is really something of a psych test to see if a cadet keeps his cool or completely crumbles in the face of imminent destruction. To me, how well a cadet commands his crew during such a situation is perhaps an even bigger part of the test.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say that is how the Kobayashi Maru Scenario actually works--nobody really knows that--but that's just my interpretation of it based on what little info we really have on its purpose.

My guess is your right. No matter what you do your ship is lost because like Zardoz mentioned:

Originally Posted by Zardoz

As they said in TWOK the KM is a test of charater, how you face death, the ultimate no win senario.

The whole theme of TWOK is life and death. Even Spock says "I never took the Kobayashi Maru test until now" as he is facing his own death. Also in ST:III as Kirk watches the Enterprise burn up in the atmosphere and he says "My God, Bones... what have I done?" McCoy replies "What you had to do. What you always do: turn death into a fighting chance to live." Which I'm pretty sure is also a reference to Kirks belief in the no win scenario.

[Samuel]

One thing about tests, if a test taker knows in advance there is no way to get a passing score they will just do whatever they want because it doesnt matter. And after 20-30 years everyone knows it cannot be beaten. Just have fun with it and dont even try to beat it.

"Captain theres a ship in distress."
"Dont worry about it, lets go get us some Klingons."
"Sounds good to me."

Both ships are destroyed. Oh well. Have fun cleaning up the bridge guys I'm out to lunch.

Thing is... at its simplest level how can something test how a person faces death when he/she knows death is no different than getting offed in a video game? I guess the modern example would be an active duty submarine drill receiving a launch order for its nukes. But nobody except the captain and senior officers knows its a drill. The test of character is how a crew would react to pushing the button. Otherwise its just going through the motions to see how efficient they are at their jobs... which by its very nature has a passing score.

Actually now that I think about it TNG did have that. A real test of fear, as far as the cadet knows.

[kevin]

I would guess that the KM does not have a 'score' at which if you are below you fail and if you exceed you pass though.

At least, that's not quite how I interpreted it either in TWOK or the film. I might be wrong of course, but it seems that the results would be in the form of some kind of report or assessment on what the candidate's decisions and responses might indicate about their personality or likely course of actions in given situations.

That would be combined with other more standardised assesments to generate a profile of the individual which would then be compared to certain required standards further down the line.

Of course, there's also the odd point that Spock says he never took the KM. If we were to assume it was a requirement for (at the very least) all officers seeking to take the command route and aiming for the Captain's Chair - which as second-in-command, must have been something Spock was trying to attain - then it makes me wonder just who the test is given to.

[Kaboom]

The 'correct' outcome of the Kobayashi Maru test is, "everyone on your side dies, you learn a lesson."

[martok2112]

In the video game of StarFleet Academy for Super Nintendo, the Klingons did indeed send more and more ships after you, especially if you somehow managed to destroy a couple of them.

I played the scenario one time, and actually managed to destroy five Klingon battlecruisers before my ship was destroyed.

And, IIRC, I think in the novelization of TWOK, Saavik's Enterprise actually managed to make an evasive maneuver, only to be cut off by another squadron of battlecruisers. In the simulation, she also managed to destroy one or two cruisers before the bridge went haywire from the overwhelming firepower of the virtual Klingons.

[kevin]

It's possible the simulation would just automatically add in another group of cruisers if it seemed you might be coming up with a manouvre that would get you out of having to face the possibility of defeat.

It does seem to get controlled by another group of people - they could throw in anything they like!

[wade8069]

Thanks your guys ideas,

[danellis]

Originally Posted by kevin

Though it remains undeniable that Kirk circumvented that intent by refusing to accept the conditions.

He was never pushed to that point until TWOK.

That's not true: He'd taken the test twice before the one he rigged.

dJE