The Official Star Trek Movie Forum

The Official Star Trek Movie Forum > Star Trek > Star Trek XI: The Movie > Sequel: allegory, modern-day issues, torture?...
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 09-16-2009, 11:54 AM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC-73515 View Post
It doesn't have to be US crimes, it could also be the recent Gaza war with all the war crimes...
NCC, that is just a conflict between two parties who fight for fourty years resp. nearly a hundred years. War crimes happen in every violent conflict and you cannot condense something as complicated as the Middle East conflict into two hours of cinema.
Concerning torture, we had a torture scene in ST09. This should suffice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTrekkie View Post
Well even an unoriginal allegory is better than every movie without any meta-level

And no I am not thinking of a corruption story like in DS9 or Insurrection. In DS9 the corruption was based on the security vs. freedom topic- doesn't fit as an allegory to the financial crisis, that's more something for a 9/11 & Terrorist allegory.
Insurrection on the other hand was more like the scenario the devil testing Jesus by promising the world to him, a test of the faith in your ideals when breaking your ideals gives you the holy grail. Also not a good allegory for the financial crisis.

A financial crisis allegory probably had to be more political and more intellectual about the structure of power, the interdependencies of power, the necessities of power, more about the system.
As you surely know, the causes of the financial crisis are fairly technical (collusion between banks and rating agencies, circumvention of capital requirements via e.g. shadowbanks) and not as the feuilleton guys claim greed or the end of capitalism.
That's why I see no need to adress the crisis in art.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-16-2009, 12:55 PM
TheTrekkie's Avatar
TheTrekkie TheTrekkie is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,030
Default

The causes might be quite technical, but the effects and the range of the effects also show some problems beyond these purely legal elements.

E.g. why is there any bank or any company too big to fail and thus being able to control the government's actions and make the government dependent? Shouldn't it be the other way around? That automatically leads to the question if power is spread correctly in our system and the philosophical debate how power would/should be spread in an ideal system. And it can make you think about the interdependencies on how economic power influences political power and political decisions.
__________________
And if tyrants take me, And throw me in prison, My thoughts will burst free, Like blossoms in season.
Foundations will crumble, The structure will tumble, And free men will cry:
Thoughts are free!

Last edited by TheTrekkie : 09-16-2009 at 12:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-16-2009, 01:05 PM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,282
Default

Companies are not too big too fail, they can just pressure politicians because of the repercussions of job losses. Banks of a certain size are due to the strong interdependencies among them.

There are plenty of simple solutions, from tighter capital requirements over a reduction of interbank lending (simpling capping the proportion in the balance which may be assets or liabilities from other banks) to a radical abolishment of deposit money (such that the central bank can perfectly control the money supply).

It's technical and boring (like all in economics ) and I don't see the philosophical component (unless you just ask the question and don't go through the possible answers and solutions).


What I would not mind to see would be an exploration of Federation economy which is based on nearly costless production of basic goods on the supply side and on a lack of demand for luxury goods.
So one could could ask what happens if a citizen does not want what Picard said in FC, but wants hedonism. Might make a good Harry Mudd story.

Last edited by horatio : 09-16-2009 at 01:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-16-2009, 01:22 PM
buffs79's Avatar
buffs79 buffs79 is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 953
Default

I'm betting it starts off with a lot of hope that the Romulans will pay. Then the Federation will attack the Klingons.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-16-2009, 01:32 PM
TheTrekkie's Avatar
TheTrekkie TheTrekkie is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,030
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
they can just pressure politicians because of the repercussions of job losses.
That's also a certain kind of power especially unions and the employers use to make the government do what they want them to do.
Size is here the key.

Power just means that you can control the outcome, e.g. by creating a pressure that is too strong to withstand. It doesn't matter if you are making the (political) decision or someone else is making the decision for you in your interest.


And there are a lot of philosophical approaches on how power has to be distributed to create a perfect world.
Actually all the different ruling systems that were created or at least conceived are possible implementations to give an answer on this question.
__________________
And if tyrants take me, And throw me in prison, My thoughts will burst free, Like blossoms in season.
Foundations will crumble, The structure will tumble, And free men will cry:
Thoughts are free!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-16-2009, 01:51 PM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,282
Default

Don't you prefer the political economy courses (which are hopefully taught at your university) over Star Trek to deal with these issues?
Seriously, this is no big philosophical thing IMO. Decent transparency is the only way to limit the influence of small interest groups at the cost of the interests of the general public, e.g. the bail-out of automobile companies.

Of course the financial crisis shattered the belief in democracy and free markets of many people, but I hope you don't seriously suggest that these fears are anything but irrational.
Beyond democracy lies fascism and beyond free markets (which is not the neoliberal nonsense of an anarchy economy without rules) lies poverty.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-16-2009, 09:54 PM
kevin's Avatar
kevin kevin is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Kilbride, Glasgow, UK
Posts: 21,078
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by buffs79 View Post
I'm betting it starts off with a lot of hope that the Romulans will pay. Then the Federation will attack the Klingons.
At the risk of biting, again, why?

What do the Romulans have to 'pay for' precisely? The Vulcan refusal to help them that assisted in the destruction of their world?

Why would the Federation attack the Klingons?

Whether that be a tongue in cheek comment or not, they are ideas that have been mooted in fandom already, and for the life of me, I have no idea how they are considered likely.
__________________
'If the Apocalypse starts, beep me!' - Buffy Summers
'The sky's the limit.....' Jean-Luc Picard, 'All Good Things'


courtesy of Saquist
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-16-2009, 09:57 PM
Elizadolots's Avatar
Elizadolots Elizadolots is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,466
Default

I have a hard time imagining a plot the involves the Romulans but does not also involve Spock Prime...he is the witness that can attest to what happens in the future. Unless they are keeping Nimoy a secret (not impossible at this stage) then it seems unlikely to me.
__________________


Thanks to Ron Salon for the signature banner!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-16-2009, 10:03 PM
kevin's Avatar
kevin kevin is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Kilbride, Glasgow, UK
Posts: 21,078
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizadolots View Post
I have a hard time imagining a plot the involves the Romulans but does not also involve Spock Prime...he is the witness that can attest to what happens in the future. Unless they are keeping Nimoy a secret (not impossible at this stage) then it seems unlikely to me.
It's possible that he is, while not being kept 'secret' as such, but he may not be known as 'Spock'.

In order to provide some protection against those who may want to use him, he could be hidden in plain sight as merely an old survivor of the Vulcan catastrophe, under a new name.

While it's possible he could get recognised, with only 10,000 survivors it's also possible no-one except certain Enterprise crew members and high level Starfleet personnel would know who he really was.

But a story connected to the Vulcans/Romulans would indeed surely require his presence and the writers and Nimoy seem now to be making it clear that cameos from TOS etc are now out the way.
__________________
'If the Apocalypse starts, beep me!' - Buffy Summers
'The sky's the limit.....' Jean-Luc Picard, 'All Good Things'


courtesy of Saquist
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-16-2009, 10:17 PM
Darth Sabre Darth Sabre is offline
Ensign
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 31
Default

Please no. It'll be yet another boiled down criticism of the US. Boring. Unimaginative. Tired.

Let's just move on now.

Doug
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:11 AM.


Forum theme courtesy of Mark Lambert
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2009 by Paramount Pictures. STAR TREK and all related
marks and logos are trademarks of CBS Studios Inc. All Rights Reserved.