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  #11  
Old 09-16-2009, 10:43 AM
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Plus the 'absolute power' thing is as old as the hills.
At least as old as our constitutions, but not as old as our good old 'revenge'

And I don't want a topic about absolute power without more substance than revenge, too. But it has potential for a more complex story, about how the path to hell is paved with good intentions and uncontrolled power even corrupts the best-meant system...
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  #12  
Old 09-16-2009, 10:48 AM
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That's not very 'new' either, though.

This is the problem with allegory - if it's not an allegory one is interested in, the whole film loses appeal from the start.

And we've kinda already done the 'corruption' of the Federation and taken it's principles round the block on DS9 and gone inside/outside, gone over the dark underbelly of it.

There's not many 'original' allegories left, and if they get done badly, they just come off as preachy (which no-one likes) and reduces the film.
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  #13  
Old 09-16-2009, 11:28 AM
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TUC was obviously mirroring the end of the Cold War and never preachy, perhaps because it first showed that Kirk hates Klingons before it showed how he overcame his hate.
Or let's take a superhero comic adaptation, "Ironman". Is it preachy because it shows how a playboy changes when he is faced with a moral problem? Would it be better if it were just good guy against bad guy in cool machines beating the crap out of each other?

By the way, those who dislike anything preachy are usually the ones in grave need of hearing the message.

Last edited by horatio : 09-16-2009 at 11:32 AM.
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  #14  
Old 09-16-2009, 11:34 AM
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TUC was obviously mirroring the end of the Cold War and never preachy, because it first showed that Kirk hates Klingons before it showed how he overcame his hate.
Or let's take a superhero comic adaptation, "Ironman". Is it preachy because it shows how a playboy changes when he is faced with a moral problem?

By the way, those who dislike anything preachy are usually the ones in grave need of hearing the message.
But Ironman stayed true to it's "prechy" comic orgins. Made no bones about it.

I felt TVC was preachy, we knew Kirk hated the Klingons for the death of his son. Even if you hadn't seen TSFS, it was all over the media for 2 years after the film's release. The theme ran all the way through over and over, that aspect of it didn't impress me, in an otherwise great film.

I found the fact that Spoock "played" Kirk by "persoanlly vouching" for him on the Gorkon mission. Kirk had been "outkirked" by Spock.

TWOK is the least preachy of the films, it showed Kirk's struggle with age, a son, refinding Carol in his life, and the "loss" of Spock. But it never beat you over the head with it.
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  #15  
Old 09-16-2009, 11:37 AM
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By the way, those who dislike anything preachy are usually the ones in grave need of hearing the message.
Or have heard it so many times before, another lesson is not required.
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  #16  
Old 09-16-2009, 11:44 AM
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But Ironman stayed true to it's "prechy" comic orgins. Made no bones about it.

I felt TVC was preachy, we knew Kirk hated the Klingons for the death of his son. Even if you hadn't seen TSFS, it was all over the media for 2 years after the film's release. The theme ran all the way through over and over, that aspect of it didn't impress me, in an otherwise great film.

I found the fact that Spoock "played" Kirk by "persoanlly vouching" for him on the Gorkon mission. Kirk had been "outkirked" by Spock.

TWOK is the least preachy of the films, it showed Kirk's struggle with age, a son, refinding Carol in his life, and the "loss" of Spock. But it never beat you over the head with it.
So showing a person's change from feeling old and tired to young and vigorous makes the best Trek movie while showing how a person changes from hating his archenemy to embracing the chance of peace is preachy and sucks?
Me and all the 24th century Federation citizens who live in an (admitted fragile) peace with the Klingons disagree.


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Or have heard it so many times before, another lesson is not required.
Tell this to all the climate change denying right-wing nutters. They might wanna watch the most funny, thematically most actual Trek movie which is surely anything but preachy, just good sci-fi.
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  #17  
Old 09-16-2009, 11:46 AM
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It doesn't have to be US crimes, it could also be the recent Gaza war with all the war crimes...
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  #18  
Old 09-16-2009, 11:46 AM
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That's not very 'new' either, though.

This is the problem with allegory - if it's not an allegory one is interested in, the whole film loses appeal from the start.

And we've kinda already done the 'corruption' of the Federation and taken it's principles round the block on DS9 and gone inside/outside, gone over the dark underbelly of it.

There's not many 'original' allegories left, and if they get done badly, they just come off as preachy (which no-one likes) and reduces the film.
Well even an unoriginal allegory is better than every movie without any meta-level

And no I am not thinking of a corruption story like in DS9 or Insurrection. In DS9 the corruption was based on the security vs. freedom topic- doesn't fit as an allegory to the financial crisis, that's more something for a 9/11 & Terrorist allegory.
Insurrection on the other hand was more like the scenario the devil testing Jesus by promising the world to him, a test of the faith in your ideals when breaking your ideals gives you the holy grail. Also not a good allegory for the financial crisis.

A financial crisis allegory probably had to be more political and more intellectual about the structure of power, the interdependencies of power, the necessities of power, more about the system and its necessities.
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  #19  
Old 09-16-2009, 11:47 AM
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Tell this to all the climate change denying right-wing nutters. They might wanna watch the most funny and thematically most actual Trek movie.
There are always exceptions, and people who don't listen. I'm just pointing out there are also people who get it the first time, and don't necessarily need reminding. And the more it gets repeated, the less it holds attention.

There's a spectrum in everything.
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  #20  
Old 09-16-2009, 11:51 AM
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Well even an unoriginal allegory is better than every movie without any meta-level

And no I am not thinking of a corruption story like in DS9 or Insurrection. In DS9 the corruption was based on the security vs. freedom topic- doesn't fit as an allegory to the financial crisis, that's more something for a 9/11 & Terrorist allegory.
Insurrection on the other hand was more like the scenario the devil testing Jesus by promising the world to him, a test of the faith in your ideals when breaking your ideals gives you the holy grail. Also not a good allegory for the financial crisis.

A financial crisis allegory probably had to be more political and more intellectual about the structure of power, the interdependencies of power, the necessities of power, more about the system.
Something along the lines of interdependencies of power could be appealing.
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