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  #121  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:14 AM
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It's easy to pick apart something when we want to be super-critical--especially when it's something we're not fond of. I also think Enterprise's handling of the Romulan's was well done, but I liked the show. What I can't understand is why some people are so ready to pin what is cannon and non-cannon on a single line of dialog, but ignore glaring errors like the missing shuttle craft from The Enemy Within, or other such inconsistencies. Didn't Spock originally have only a distant relative who was human? Didn't the TOS Enterprise reach warp 14? What happened to the laser pistol's in The Cage? Why did Khan know Chekov? Cannon, smannon. I treat Trek like a Chinese buffet. I take what I want, and leave the rest. I think that's from Big Trouble in Little China.

Too many people on this forum want to state why they love a certain Trek show, but hate another. Some make elaborate arguments why they're right and why others are wrong--and I'm not saying that I'm not guilty of this. But I am getting fed up with it and finding myself less and less interested coming here because of it.
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  #122  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Livingston View Post
Yes exactly, it reads like a brief outline of the elements this war was fought under, 'atomics', 'no visuals', 'primitive by our standards'. To me, they read more like notes than facts, generalizations. If the episode had a scene where they further speculated about the Romulans a century ago we'd probably have a more concrete picture set out for us and some of these issues we're debating would be, as Saq suggests, set out in facts, though I believe everything Spock lays out in that sentence is only a vague description of what happened a century ago.

Obviously Spock knows what he's talking about, he just doesn't lay it out in facts cause, well he's on the bridge about to meet an alien race they hadn't seen in a hundred years and the last time they met them, they were at war, so he's generalizing the situation cause they're in a bit of a tight spot! If it were Data, he'd probably lay out the whole history of the war and Picard would have to tell him to shut up!
He keeps it vauge like everyone allready knows this on the bridge. That would make sense, since I am sure it is taught in history class somewhere along the way.
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  #123  
Old 04-16-2008, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Zirconium View Post
I found something special watching the characters having to live with whatever they did for 7 seasons, as opposed to screwing up a civilisation's culture then hitting warp 9 to escape the problems they caused.
That is an intresting perspective.

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Originally Posted by Damage75 View Post
You stick with "facts" when they suit your purpose.

You are speculating. Nothing wrong with that, we all do it. You can't call it "fact", unless you have met Spock, interviewed him, and he told you what he meant. Then you can say it's fact.

Until then, you are following the definition of "speculating". Your "interpretation" is fine, and no one will say you're wrong. But yours is no more right or wrong then mine.

Please remember that this is a fictional show, and the stories were told to show us our lives from a different perspective. Interpretations will vary, which is what makes this forum interesting.
Adding to, or fitting in extraneous ideas such as you're doing is rightly called speculating. Taking Spock at his litteral word is not.

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Originally Posted by Livingston View Post
Yes exactly, it reads like a brief outline of the elements this war was fought under, 'atomics', 'no visuals', 'primitive by our standards'. To me, they read more like notes than facts, generalizations. If the episode had a scene where they further speculated about the Romulans a century ago we'd probably have a more concrete picture set out for us and some of these issues we're debating would be, as Saq suggests, set out in facts, though I believe everything Spock lays out in that sentence is only a vague description of what happened a century ago.

Obviously Spock knows what he's talking about, he just doesn't lay it out in facts cause, well he's on the bridge about to meet an alien race they hadn't seen in a hundred years and the last time they met them, they were at war, so he's generalizing the situation cause they're in a bit of a tight spot! If it were Data, he'd probably lay out the whole history of the war and Picard would have to tell him to shut up!
That's fine, Livingston. I can agree with generality of Spocks statements I just can not speculate further in the face of the contradictions. Lets say for instance if Entperprise was using spatial charges like the were before.

That is not a technology the 23 century Star Fleet uses. It's therefore not covered by the statement. One could rightly speculate that this was a atomic style device or a tech that was just as primitive.But as I've outlined for the fourth time now, a photon torpedo is an shielded antimatter/matter narrow frequency weapon. The photonic torpedo is the exact same shape and size, it uses antimatter and it is shielded as well.

Just addressing the issue of antimatter containment on such a small device gives me pause to even consider this as primitive technology. The shielding technology itself is a huge NO-NO-contradiction to the word primitive in said small device. Don't take technology for granted just because it's Star Trek. It's true Trek does things a bit faster than tech normally works but at least two hundred years passed before the 23rd century found all the right peices for their society.


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Originally Posted by Falstaff View Post
It's easy to pick apart something when we want to be super-critical--especially when it's something we're not fond of. I also think Enterprise's handling of the Romulan's was well done, but I liked the show. What I can't understand is why some people are so ready to pin what is cannon and non-cannon on a single line of dialog, but ignore glaring errors like the missing shuttle craft from The Enemy Within, or other such inconsistencies. Didn't Spock originally have only a distant relative who was human? Didn't the TOS Enterprise reach warp 14? What happened to the laser pistol's in The Cage? Why did Khan know Chekov? Cannon, smannon. I treat Trek like a Chinese buffet. I take what I want, and leave the rest. I think that's from Big Trouble in Little China.

Too many people on this forum want to state why they love a certain Trek show, but hate another. Some make elaborate arguments why they're right and why others are wrong--and I'm not saying that I'm not guilty of this. But I am getting fed up with it and finding myself less and less interested coming here because of it.
Granted.
Yet...When considering a series whose very premise contradicted canon and the producers appeared go out of their way to contradict canon I pause before giving them the benefit of the doubt. The errors hugely contradict the entire franchise not just. Damage seems to be inclined to always speculate loosely based off the canon but I have no use for speculation in this regard. I'm prosecuting the series, not trying to let it off the hook. It was cancel, and rightly so.
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  #124  
Old 04-16-2008, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
That is not a technology the 23 century Star Fleet uses. It's therefore not covered by the statement. One could rightly speculate that this was a atomic style device or a tech that was just as primitive.But as I've outlined for the fourth time now, a photon torpedo is an shielded antimatter/matter narrow frequency weapon. The photonic torpedo is the exact same shape and size, it uses antimatter and it is shielded as well.

Just addressing the issue of antimatter containment on such a small device gives me pause to even consider this as primitive technology. The shielding technology itself is a huge NO-NO-contradiction to the word primitive in said small device.
Magnetic containment isn't exactly high technology as far as Star Trek goes. Especially given the minute quantities of antimatter something like a photonic torpedo would make use of. Warp technologies, on the other hand, was always made out to be quite elusive in ENT. Humanity had to struggle for every little bit of advancement they could get in Warp theory during ENT's time.

IMO, the main selling point of Photon Torpedoes wasn't tha antimatter; but rather their ability to sustain a warp field independently. That aspect of them allows for much more versatile tactics. And I very much doubt the Photonic Torpedoes had this ability, making them laughably primitive and tactically useless compared to their 23rd-century equivalents.
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  #125  
Old 04-16-2008, 06:18 PM
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Saq, I was going to say something along the lines that TM2 said, but my basic point was that Spock's description of the technology is vague, he doesn't give us a detailed explanation of what he means by 'atomics'. From the view point of the time the show was made in, it was a nice way of throwing out a word that the public was familiar with and 'atomics' certainly would have hit people hard in the 60's and would have rooted the technology in Star Trek to our present. That was the intent of the line, to show a lineage some connection to our technology and it seems to me that you are doing the same as the writers of Enterprise did, you are drawing your own conclusions from the line and arguing what you feel the world of the Earth/Romulan War would've been like, when in reality we don't know cause it wasn't dramatized or explained in any detail. It could mean the primitive photonic torpedos of Enterprise or it could mean actual atomic weapons, though I'd imagine that you would come up with a matter/antimatter weapon before achieving warp drive since that energy release is the fuel utilized in warp drive. Again all speculation though. You speak of a contradiction but I don't see any facts in what we're debating that would define a contradiction, to me it just seems to be speculation.
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  #126  
Old 04-16-2008, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TM2-Megatron View Post
Magnetic containment isn't exactly high technology as far as Star Trek goes. Especially given the minute quantities of antimatter something like a photonic torpedo would make use of. Warp technologies, on the other hand, was always made out to be quite elusive in ENT. Humanity had to struggle for every little bit of advancement they could get in Warp theory during ENT's time.

IMO, the main selling point of Photon Torpedoes wasn't tha antimatter; but rather their ability to sustain a warp field independently. That aspect of them allows for much more versatile tactics. And I very much doubt the Photonic Torpedoes had this ability, making them laughably primitive and tactically useless compared to their 23rd-century equivalents.
Magnetic containment would be and advanced technology by the 22nd century. I wouldn't expect them to have learned how to miniturized it to the point of the 24th century torpedo. And that is exactly what they've done with magnetic and the shielding technology.

You just don't understand how hard is to contain antimatter. Nor do I suspect you understand just how much antimatter is being contained vs the power to contain it. We're not talking just a couple thousand molecules.

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Originally Posted by Livingston View Post
Saq, I was going to say something along the lines that TM2 said, but my basic point was that Spock's description of the technology is vague, he doesn't give us a detailed explanation of what he means by 'atomics'. From the view point of the time the show was made in, it was a nice way of throwing out a word that the public was familiar with and 'atomics' certainly would have hit people hard in the 60's and would have rooted the technology in Star Trek to our present. That was the intent of the line, to show a lineage some connection to our technology and it seems to me that you are doing the same as the writers of Enterprise did, you are drawing your own conclusions from the line and arguing what you feel the world of the Earth/Romulan War would've been like, when in reality we don't know cause it wasn't dramatized or explained in any detail. It could mean the primitive photonic torpedos of Enterprise or it could mean actual atomic weapons, though I'd imagine that you would come up with a matter/antimatter weapon before achieving warp drive since that energy release is the fuel utilized in warp drive. Again all speculation though. You speak of a contradiction but I don't see any facts in what we're debating that would define a contradiction, to me it just seems to be speculation.
That's easy. Atomic means fission or fusion.
All that is required to understand is to know that antimatter reactions are not covered by the word, "atomic". No speculation required.

I don't have to bring up a persepective on wrong or right uses of the word atomic. Simple Logic. Photonic torpedoes are not atomics. Anything else is a contradiction in terms of how the war was fought. None has yet to offer any counter to that reality. Damage has offered speculation but that is it. Nothing factual.
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  #127  
Old 04-16-2008, 08:21 PM
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And where does it say that 'antimatter reactions' are not covered by the word atomics? These interactions take place at the subatomic level. You are speculating that Spock is not referring to matter/antimatter when saying 'atomics'. All I'm saying is that you can't without a doubt say that this is what Spock means or that is what Spock means. A writer could take that sentence and pull it in either direction, cause nothing in the sentence is spelled out in absolute fact. How do we know that people of Star Trek's 23rd century wouldn't speak of first attempts at antimatter/matter reaction as 'atomics' or the entire field of quantum mechanics, fusion, fission as atomics?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think it could go either way with not too much of a problem cause it's not spelled out in that particular episode.
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  #128  
Old 04-16-2008, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Magnetic containment would be and advanced technology by the 22nd century. I wouldn't expect them to have learned how to miniturized it to the point of the 24th century torpedo. And that is exactly what they've done with magnetic and the shielding technology.
Well, since neither of us are scientists living in the fictional 22nd-century portrayed by Star Trek... it's pretty hard to say for sure. However, going by the show, clearly it isn't that advanced a technology. Hell, it's only magnetic fields... how complicated could that be for 22nd-century science; when they've got things like intertial dampeners and artificial gravity generation?

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
You just don't understand how hard is to contain antimatter. Nor do I suspect you understand just how much antimatter is being contained vs the power to contain it. We're not talking just a couple thousand molecules.
And you do understand? Lol, as far as I'm aware, nobody (as yet) has a full grasp on the nature of Antimatter. We've only barely developed the technology to create it artificially; and even then not a hell of a lot. I doubt a photonic torpedo contains that much Antimatter... the mechanisms used in its containment wouldn't need to be that powerful.

Why not bash "Angels and Demons" instead? Apparently, they were carrying Antimatter around in a thing the size of a brief case... and that took place in present day!


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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
That's easy. Atomic means fission or fusion.
All that is required to understand is to know that antimatter reactions are not covered by the word, "atomic". No speculation required.
That's what it means now... it doesn't necessarily follow that the term will always cover such a narrow range of reactions. Terminology in the sciences often changes as our understanding of subjects expands. By the 23rd-century, "atomics" could easily have become a generic term for high-energy reactions that occur at the subatomic level.
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  #129  
Old 04-16-2008, 08:55 PM
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Man, you said that a bit more clear than I did TM2! Anyway, another thing to take into account is that they use antimatter/matter interaction to fuel their warp ships. It takes an interaction of that magnitude to produce the energies needed to warp space, so wouldn't it stand to reason that we would've been able to design a bomb based on the same technology first? If we have warp drive, the first generation photon torpedoes should not be too far behind and in Enterprise they called them photonic torpedoes, who's to say that Spock and people of this fictional future wouldn't call them 'atomics'?

I completely forgot about that Angels and Demons bit! There was quite a bit of science in that one, much more so than DaVinci Code.
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  #130  
Old 04-17-2008, 01:07 AM
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My own personal gripes with Enterprise:

Klingons appeared to be too close to Earth considering later they are both fairly large Star Nations but not supposedly right on top of each other.

Initial frustration with the Vulcans seemingly strutting around like they were the oversees of the region even to the point where they can tell the Klingons not to invade Earth. (A far cry from later years when the Klingon Ambassador calls Vulcans the "Intellectual Puppets" of the Federation.)

The Xindi Arc AND the Temporal Cold War... neither drew me in especially when we had the Romulans out there somewhere waiting to get on the screen.

The fact that the decision to cancel the show was made BEFORE the final season... Yes I think if they had waited for the fourth season to air before deciding then it would have survived and continued to improve.

Some things I liked:

Shran and the Andorian episodes were always good.

Trip Tucker... To me the best character in the show. Sad that he died in the last episode.

Just my 2 credits...


Oh... As to WHY a shuttle wasn't used in the Enemy Within... Would YOU want to pilot that shuttle in the atmospheric turbulence of that planet? Suicide mission.
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