[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by TM2-Megatron

From the way Spock worded it, he never made it sound as if visual communication wasn't possible; simply that it wasn't used. If he'd included the visual communication thing as part of his first sentence, that would've implied the technology somehow limited it, as the size of the ships allowed for no captives. As it stands, after he mentioned that there were no captives; I suppose he also felt it necessary to note that there was never any visual communication just to cement the notion that nobody in the Federation ever saw what a Romulan looked like. Clearly, from what we saw in ENT, the Romulans already knew what humans looked like long before the war. That probably helped that a lot during the war with spies posing as Vulcans.

No quarters seems incredibly stupid, though. Even our ships today have some kind of quarters, and they're laughably primitive. Sometimes I think the TOS writers were trying way too hard to make the past (though still the future to us) sound primitive.

As for the so-called "atomics", as someone else side the "by our standards" line leaves it well open to interpretation. Even if you can't get over the Photonic Torpedoes used in season 3 and 4 of ENT, why should we assume that the Spatial Torpedoes from seasons 1 and 2 aren't atomic in nature? Given that Photonic Torpedoes were quite new at that time, I'd imagine that very few ships would've gotten them (probably only the NX and later designs)... all of Starfleet's pre-NX ships would probably still be using Spatial Torpedoes for quite some time. And from all the battle scenes shown in 24th-century shows, we all know how prone Starfleet is to sending ships into battle that are far too old for their own good. It's a good bet that a lot of the ships that fought in the Romulan War were built prior to the NX-class, and were still using Spatial Torpedoes.

Personally, though, I don't have a problem with including Photonic Torpedoes under the "atomic" banner... it's all pretty primitive compared to the 23rd and later centuries.

Some great conjecture there!

I allways assummed that the Photonic Torpedos were related to Photon Torpedos as muskets are to machine guns.

Ans noboy ever said the Romulans were not using Atomic based weapons. Nobody ever said both sides were using atomics.

I like your "spy" theory!

Could be that, as I said it was a compatability problem, or the Romulans never let on they had the abilty, or chose not to use it in the war. All this fits in with Spock's lines well.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by Zardoz

Barely??? Meaning?

Spock didn't say the technology was so different. The Federation was already formed by the time of the war. Thats true even for the War Plotted out in the STSFC book. Spock says "primitive" in refrence to all the terms in the paragraph following a line of thought.

The torps have a shield glow.
They are related to photon torpedos. Same casing (litteraly) use matter and anti matter and uses shield technology, again comparing the two centuries this is actually on the same standard of the 24th century.

That's unkown. I could give you more information. But the only thing the tech does is make the hull harder.

Originally Posted by Damage75

That is your interpretation and opinion, not fact.



Thanks for quoting this. I think it shows our different interpretations quite clearly. Here's how I see it:

If he hadn't used the phrase "by our standards", then I would have a harder time with it. But saying this leaves the door wide open. By our standards today in 2008, weapons used during WWII were primitive, but yet we still have them available for use.

"Primitive space vessels"…..this doesn't mean much either. I consider cars from the 20's to be primitive….doesn't mean they didn't exist.

"Nor was there any two-way, ship to ship, visual communication, therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other". Again, I read this as "there was not any two-way ship to ship visual communication with the Romulans. Never does he say that this technology didn't exist, just that they didn't have it with the Romulans.

And again, do really think the Federation doesn't have two way visual communication a 150 years from now? We have this technology today!

I agree with Zardoz…raise the rabbit ear attenaes!

Originally Posted by TM2-Megatron

From the way Spock worded it, he never made it sound as if visual communication wasn't possible; simply that it wasn't used. If he'd included the visual communication thing as part of his first sentence, that would've implied the technology somehow limited it, as the size of the ships allowed for no captives. As it stands, after he mentioned that there were no captives; I suppose he also felt it necessary to note that there was never any visual communication just to cement the notion that nobody in the Federation ever saw what a Romulan looked like. Clearly, from what we saw in ENT, the Romulans already knew what humans looked like long before the war. That probably helped that a lot during the war with spies posing as Vulcans.

No quarters seems incredibly stupid, though. Even our ships today have some kind of quarters, and they're laughably primitive. Sometimes I think the TOS writers were trying way too hard to make the past (though still the future to us) sound primitive.

As for the so-called "atomics", as someone else side the "by our standards" line leaves it well open to interpretation. Even if you can't get over the Photonic Torpedoes used in season 3 and 4 of ENT, why should we assume that the Spatial Torpedoes from seasons 1 and 2 aren't atomic in nature? Given that Photonic Torpedoes were quite new at that time, I'd imagine that very few ships would've gotten them (probably only the NX and later designs)... all of Starfleet's pre-NX ships would probably still be using Spatial Torpedoes for quite some time. And from all the battle scenes shown in 24th-century shows, we all know how prone Starfleet is to sending ships into battle that are far too old for their own good. It's a good bet that a lot of the ships that fought in the Romulan War were built prior to the NX-class, and were still using Spatial Torpedoes.

Personally, though, I don't have a problem with including Photonic Torpedoes under the "atomic" banner... it's all pretty primitive compared to the 23rd and later centuries.

The word "standards" sets a bar as does "primitive" It illuminates the gulf between to different eras. It doesn't mean the tech wasn't there but logic dictates that if the war was fought with "primitive atomics" then of course any advanced technology was not sufficiently deveoped to be included in Spock's statements.

Yet we know that is a contradiction. The NX's contradict that statement.
Anything can be interpreted or actually what is being done is speculated but Spock' statements make no real room on the issue. One could endlessly speculate on the inclussions of that tech however it does not change the contradiction that is placed on the tech at the time the war was fought.

[Livingston]

with the ship to ship visual communication thing, it could very well be a software issue, or that the Romulans just didn't want to communicate that way, but when I heard Spock say that line, my first impression was that ships of that era didn't use that form of communication. Sure, we could certainly outfit all our naval vessels today with visual communications and some probably have it to a degree, but it's not the primary communication tool as seen in Star Trek. They certainly would have ship to ship visual capability a hundred years before TOS but it doesn't mean that that form of communication was widely used on starships at that time, perhaps it was incorporated later.

Of course with Enterprise we know this isn't true, they had it, so maybe it was more so that the Romulans didn't want to communicate visually. Speaking of Enterprise wasn't there an episode where Archer and crew stray into a mine field and turns out to be set there by the Romulans and they try to speak with the Romulans but they can't break through for visual contact? I remember Trip or T'Pol or someone trying to hack in so they could get a look at them but couldn't do it. Then in TOS with Balance of Terror Spock did hack into their system to see them visually, which would indicate that it was more of an issue of the Romulans not wanting to be seen or that ship to ship visuals wasn't used as predominantly at the time Spock was referring to but certainly the technology would be there.

Rabbit ears...hmmm... how quaint!

[Saquist]

Our naval ships today do use visual communications. It is primarily for personal communications though. During the current US wars soldiers have been given video phone ability and some ships have video confrencing to relay with superiors but by an large orders do not require video communication. Like EAM's a code and verification code are confirmed before orders are acted on. There is no reason to recieve visual communication for deployment.

While what you suggest may be true on the Romulan side.
What about the human allies and the humans themselves. Clearly Enterprise visually communicated with many allies and sisterships.

It's simply a contradiction.

[Livingston]

Yes, with Spock's quote he's vague, is he speaking of all starships in general or just earth vessels and the Romulans? When I first heard it it seems he's talking about all ships, he's laying out the design of the ships used in the conflict, no quarter, no prisoners, primitive by our standards, no ship to ship visuals. I assumed they didn't use view screens is what he meant, but with the show Enterprise, they seem to contradict that and indicate it was just with the Romulans. In that episode they made this big deal out of Archer wanting to see these aliens that were demanding they leave and no one was able to hack into their visual systems so I assume they're taking Spock's comment as an issue between earth and Romulan vessels since we see plenty of ship to ship visuals in Enterprise.

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by Admiral Archer

Let the hate mail begin...

Only because you asked for it... lol

Okay, I know I'm gonna piss some people off, but here goes:

I was just flipping through the channels today, and managed to catch a couple episodes of ENTERPRISE on Sci-Fi. And, after not having watched it in a long time, I can safely say I had forgotten how truly AWESOME it is!

Now to explain why I like Enterprise as much as I do, because after TOS and TNG, it is my favorite STAR TREK series ever made. And here's why:

THE CREW: OMG, they are PERFECT! A crew this good hasn't come out since TNG, and I mean that 100%. Archer is obviously an honest-to-goodness explorer, with the heart of Picard and the rough-and-tumble nature of Kirk. T'pol is pretty much a female Spock, which means she's a GREAT character. Trip, oh good Lord, is AWESOME, the best Engineer since Scotty, if only because of how much like Scotty he is, with all the loveable county humor of Bones. Everyone else is perfect merely for being new and fresh, after a series of not-so-fresh characters.

So let me read this right... you like the Enterprise characters because of how similar they are to the TOS characters? Oddly enough, that's why I like the TOS characters better, 'cause the TOS characters are even more like the TOS characters!

THE SHIP: IT'S THE F***ING ENTERPRISE!!! Finally, we have a show that brings back the big 'E'. True, the design is different (and a cool design I must say, despite sharing similarities with the Akira-class) but the name is the same. It fits, and to me, Star Trek isn't Star Trek without a starship named Enterprise.

But... wouldn't TNG be your favorite, then? Heck, there was a space shuttle named Enterprise, I don't think I would have liked to see that in a show where it's a Starfleet ship...

THE STORY: I think the idea of a story about "how it all came to be" was incredible, very original, and better than any idea that either you or I could have thought up. No offense, but I was getting tired of the same old, same old. True, ENTERPRISE had it's slip-ups, but didn't every show, at some point or other? (And some more than others)

Well... I loved the story Enterprise started to tell of 'how it all came to be' too. I just wish they'd started telling that story before its 4th season.

I must say, to me DEEP SPACE NINE and VOYAGER are good concepts, but they are not good series, and they are NOT Star Trek. ENTERPRISE screamed true-blue Star Trek to me, in a way that Cardassian Space Stations and flying spoons didn't.

With Voyager, I agree. With DS9, to some extent, I agree there, too. I never did much care for the idea of them boldly sitting where spoon-headed space nazis had sat before. And Voyager, let's face it, was pretty much Lost In Space rebadged as a Star Trek series, with a gratuitous T&A character thrown in to try to lure the frat boy set. Sadly, T'Pol was basically Spock twisted into the same thing.

And at least ENTERPRISE had the humility to leave the title of TREK off, when the other two shows didn't. In my book, it deserved it ten-times better than the others.

IMHO, they should have left it off.

[TM2-Megatron]

Originally Posted by The Saint

With DS9, to some extent, I agree there, too. I never did much care for the idea of them boldly sitting where spoon-headed space nazis had sat before. And Voyager, let's face it, was pretty much Lost In Space rebadged as a Star Trek series, with a gratuitous T&A character thrown in to try to lure the frat boy set. Sadly, T'Pol was basically Spock twisted into the same thing.

DS9 had a few interesting episodes now and then, but I found it to be the most boring series, overall. Especially prior to them getting the Defiant. I just hated that station. In addition to being terrible architects, Cardassians have got to be one of the worst space-faring species ever seen in Star Trek. I can see why Seska decided to hang out with the Kazon after getting to the Delta Quadrant... only they seem to be able to rival the idiocy of the Cardassians. I also didn't really care for the spiritual elements in DS9 from the Bajoran side of things (and the whining), so overall that show featured (for me) two of the most annoying species in Trek canon. Good stuff.

[Damage75]

Your interpretation is not FACT...it is your opinion. Unless you can actually ask Spock himself what he meant, then all you are doing is speculating.

No, we just showed that there is not only a little room, but a lot of room. It's all in how you read into it.

We covered this above as well. You are just repeating your speculations from before.

[quote]

Originally Posted by Livingston

Speaking of Enterprise wasn't there an episode where Archer and crew stray into a mine field and turns out to be set there by the Romulans and they try to speak with the Romulans but they can't break through for visual contact? I remember Trip or T'Pol or someone trying to hack in so they could get a look at them but couldn't do it. Then in TOS with Balance of Terror Spock did hack into their system to see them visually, which would indicate that it was more of an issue of the Romulans not wanting to be seen or that ship to ship visuals wasn't used as predominantly at the time Spock was referring to but certainly the technology would be there.

Nice find. Looks like the ENT writers were paying attention after all!

[Livingston]

Yeah, no kidding, when I first saw that Enterprise episode I was wondering why we weren't seeing the Romulans, then I saw TOS episode with what Spock was saying and it seemed to make sense, but I still wonder if in 67 or so when the show was made if the writers really meant that ship to ship visuals were not used during the earth/romulan war or if it's a software issue like we're debating? Guess we'll never know but at least Enterprise addressed it.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by Livingston

Yes, with Spock's quote he's vague, is he speaking of all starships in general or just earth vessels and the Romulans? When I first heard it it seems he's talking about all ships, he's laying out the design of the ships used in the conflict, no quarter, no prisoners, primitive by our standards, no ship to ship visuals. I assumed they didn't use view screens is what he meant, but with the show Enterprise, they seem to contradict that and indicate it was just with the Romulans. In that episode they made this big deal out of Archer wanting to see these aliens that were demanding they leave and no one was able to hack into their visual systems so I assume they're taking Spock's comment as an issue between earth and Romulan vessels since we see plenty of ship to ship visuals in Enterprise.

Lets go with the Fourth definition of vague.
4.not definitely established, determined, confirmed, or known; uncertain: a vague rumor; The date of his birth is vague.


As opposed to general's third definition.

3.not limited to one class, field, product, service, etc.; miscellaneous: the general public; general science.

General does seem to apply. Spock was not refering to any particular class of ship but to all the ship on both sides of the battle lines. General and vague can be synonymous.

However Spock was not vague or general with his discription of the technology, he was specific, atomics, no quarter, no prisoners, primitive by our standards, no ship to ship visuals. That is actually quite specific. Like you said he touches on firepower, dimensions, comm tech. We don't need grammatical qualifiers to determine his meaning, such as only or just.

The only reason why it is an issue is because ENTERPRISE decided to exceed those simple parameters by introducing technology that was anything but primitive before the war.

Originally Posted by TM2-Megatron

DS9 had a few interesting episodes now and then, but I found it to be the most boring series, overall. Especially prior to them getting the Defiant.

I concur. Even after Defiant arrived most of the action had to come to the station and show needed a desprate change of scenery to the dreary brown drabbness that cardassians seemed to embrace. I urged them to replace the station with a fullfledge Space Dock.