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  #31  
Old 08-20-2009, 10:01 AM
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Partly, I agree. The fans are the biggest problem, because they don't know what's good for them.

If they had left it at FC there would have been no problem with The Queen. She would have been an anomaly (for some), a mystery, an unexplained component of the Borg. Without a definitive answer as to her nature and role.

But Star Trek fans need everything explained (which is why some still want to connect V'Ger and the Borg, because it would be super-neat and cool!!).

So, Voyager couldn't help but bring them in - doubtless having salivated over the thought since they decided to put Voyager into the Delta Quadrant where they knew fans knew the Borg were generally accepted to have their heartland - and then kept bringing them back.

They didn't have to make the Queen the evil nemesis of Janeway (Janeway was often bipolar so she was her own enemy anyway), nor did they have to send the Borg into their own dreamland where happy things happened, nor cheapen the experience of being assimilated by having Janeway etc have no repercussions at all for going through the experience. Nor did they have to make them so easy to defeat that one little ship could handle them every time, when entire fleets were destroyed before.

FC may have made a mis-step with them, but it could have been fixed by not using them again. Voyager drove the final nails into their coffin.
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Last edited by kevin : 08-20-2009 at 10:16 AM.
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  #32  
Old 08-20-2009, 01:44 PM
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I don't think FC particularily damaged the Borg, I never thought them to be 'zombies', I found them to be a lot more chilling in appearance and ruthless in the way they acted towards non-Borg when provoked.

The Queen helped add more interaction between the Borg and the Enterprise crew which was needed for the story, have to say it would have been interesting to see how it would have been without the Queen with the Borg's action plan less obvious to the audience.

As for the Queen's use in Voyager I had a bit of a hard time as she was seen as a bit of a 'Nemesis' to Janeway, effectively showing that Janeway and her motly crew could hold their own against the entire Borg collective of countless billions. There should have been a lot more running and hopelessness when dealing with the Borg in VOY.
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  #33  
Old 08-20-2009, 01:46 PM
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There should have been a lot more running and hopelessness when dealing with the Borg in VOY.
There should have been more of that throughout the whole series.
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  #34  
Old 08-20-2009, 02:58 PM
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There should have been more of that throughout the whole series.
Very true, that's what happens I guess when you're a syndicated show and can't do running plot lines.
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  #35  
Old 11-26-2009, 05:02 AM
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Very true, that's what happens I guess when you're a syndicated show and can't do running plot lines.
Exactly - the showrunners intended to do that with Year Of Hell - which was originally a story that was to bookend an entire season - but the network said, "Nope, you're going into syndication, and we can't have plot arcs like that which will confuse 'casual' viewers". The irony was that season 3 of Enterprise then went and did a season-long arc with great success, not to mention all the mini-arcs that made up season 4 of that show....

As far as the Borg go, though, I don't think Voyager really 'spoiled' them or pulled their teeth - they were always just as menacing when they did appear, and clearly they couldn't destroy Voyager otherwise that'd be the end of the series... My only complaint really is that they were overused - that their regular appearance only stretched the credulity of Voyager managing to outmanoeuvre them every week for weeks at a stretch. I think it was only right that they became the show's chief villains - their ominpresence in the Delta quadrant was only to be expected - and I liked the way they were used as the vehicle to get Voyager home in the finale, which only seemed fitting. There were two plots in particular using the Borg which I especially liked: the Unimatrix Zero story, which for once illustrated the degree to which they (or rather, their Queen - whose intent/function has still not been explained, which again i think is probably for the best. After all, what's more worrying than an enemy whose true motivations you do not understand?) would go to obliterate individuality, and the episodes that make it clear that Borg child Icheb had been infected with an anti-Borg virus in an attempt to spread the disease to the entire collective - a nice mirror to Picard's struggle with the idea of doing the same thing in I, Borg.

The Borg will always be my favourite Trek villains/aliens: they're such a great concept, beautifully portrayed. The writers couldn't have come up with a better antithesis to the Starfleet ethos if they'd tried.

Anyway, this is supposed to be least favourite villain, right? So that'd have to be the Kazon. An interesting idea, with the sects etc, but I think they wrung every last drop out of them as an enemy. I also thought that having Seska join up with them was (a) far fetched - Seska seemed far more likely to go her own way than sign up with an enemy even she appeared to have scant regard for; and (b) and emasculated them - after the fairly formidable display in Caretaker, it seemed that they just couldn't be taken seriously as a threat until Seska gave them some direction. Space-borne wallies, then: Klingons without the honour, guile or intellect.
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  #36  
Old 11-26-2009, 05:15 PM
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Exactly - the showrunners intended to do that with Year Of Hell - which was originally a story that was to bookend an entire season - but the network said, "Nope, you're going into syndication, and we can't have plot arcs like that which will confuse 'casual' viewers". The irony was that season 3 of Enterprise then went and did a season-long arc with great success, not to mention all the mini-arcs that made up season 4 of that show....
Very interesting. I did not know that, but it would have taken the show in an excellent and satisfyingly new direction. Instead, we got that same old Seven/Doctor/Borg crap week in and week out.
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  #37  
Old 11-28-2009, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by HippyDave View Post
Exactly - the showrunners intended to do that with Year Of Hell - which was originally a story that was to bookend an entire season - but the network said, "Nope, you're going into syndication, and we can't have plot arcs like that which will confuse 'casual' viewers". The irony was that season 3 of Enterprise then went and did a season-long arc with great success, not to mention all the mini-arcs that made up season 4 of that show....
'Year of Hell' was one of the more interesting possibilities that got cut down and weakened by such production attitudes. To have spent a literal season on it could have let the show and the characters really explore a variety of issues that VOY mostly didn't seem to want to get too deeply involved in.

Pity.

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As far as the Borg go, though, I don't think Voyager really 'spoiled' them or pulled their teeth - they were always just as menacing when they did appear, and clearly they couldn't destroy Voyager otherwise that'd be the end of the series...
Unfortunately that was one of the reasons appearances by them became less effective. Since you knew nothing could really happen to the ship (either by virtue of escaping or something else allowing them some advantage) as the Borg began to appear it became routine and ineffective in terms of creating a menacing air.

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My only complaint really is that they were overused - that their regular appearance only stretched the credulity of Voyager managing to outmanoeuvre them every week for weeks at a stretch.
Bingo!

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I think it was only right that they became the show's chief villains - their ominpresence in the Delta quadrant was only to be expected - and I liked the way they were used as the vehicle to get Voyager home in the finale, which only seemed fitting. There were two plots in particular using the Borg which I especially liked: the Unimatrix Zero story, which for once illustrated the degree to which they (or rather, their Queen - whose intent/function has still not been explained, which again i think is probably for the best. After all, what's more worrying than an enemy whose true motivations you do not understand?) would go to obliterate individuality, and the episodes that make it clear that Borg child Icheb had been infected with an anti-Borg virus in an attempt to spread the disease to the entire collective - a nice mirror to Picard's struggle with the idea of doing the same thing in I, Borg.
My only feeling on that was that while after the Borg took centre stage it was of course to be expected that the Borg would play a role in the finale, that I myself really felt the finale should have involved the female caretaker - instead of writing out that aspect in season 2.

I kinda wanted to see them 'bookend' the series with that story, in a similar way that TNG had done with Q and the 'test' in 'All Good Thing's' based on 'Encounter at Farpoint'.

As an aside that's only because I personally kind of like a long-running series to feel like it's gone full circle storywise and that at the end, a show should feel like it's also harking back to the beginning a little bit to remind us what we've been through watching it. I felt in VOY, the idea of the Caretaker was a big part of that which had been closed a long time previously.
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  #38  
Old 12-01-2009, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Unfortunately that was one of the reasons appearances by [The Borg] became less effective. Since you knew nothing could really happen to the ship (either by virtue of escaping or something else allowing them some advantage) as the Borg began to appear it became routine and ineffective in terms of creating a menacing air.
I dunno, it always felt like really bad news when they showed up, and personally I always thought they were as effective as an enemy: although you knew that Voyager would have to win the day somehow, the crew always had to work pretty damn hard to make it happen. I guess what I'm trying to say is that IMO the Borg weren't emasculated, but I do appreciate that their constant (over)use did lessen the suspense somewhat. Then again, I suppose you could say much the same about any of the alien races in any of the shows!

At least the writers knew enough to not have Voyager fighting off wave after wave of Borg cubes on its own without getting pasted. They trod the thin line between what was feasible and what was not by stretching credulity, rather than snapping it like a twig...

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My only feeling on that was that while after the Borg took centre stage it was of course to be expected that the Borg would play a role in the finale, that I myself really felt the finale should have involved the female caretaker - instead of writing out that aspect in season 2.

I kinda wanted to see them 'bookend' the series with that story, in a similar way that TNG had done with Q and the 'test' in 'All Good Thing's' based on 'Encounter at Farpoint'.

As an aside that's only because I personally kind of like a long-running series to feel like it's gone full circle storywise and that at the end, a show should feel like it's also harking back to the beginning a little bit to remind us what we've been through watching it. I felt in VOY, the idea of the Caretaker was a big part of that which had been closed a long time previously.
No, I can understand that. I just think that it might have been a bit anticlimactic after featuring the Borg so relentlessly. I'm sure the writers thought, "Well, we can do this with a Caretaker, or we can do it with the Borg... Which do you reckon the fans would most like to see?" Therefore it's probably not a surprise to see that things panned out as they did!
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  #39  
Old 04-10-2010, 05:23 AM
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i think the least desirable villians on voyager would have to be the kazons.
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  #40  
Old 04-18-2010, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HippyDave View Post
Exactly - the showrunners intended to do that with Year Of Hell - which was originally a story that was to bookend an entire season - but the network said, "Nope, you're going into syndication, and we can't have plot arcs like that which will confuse 'casual' viewers". The irony was that season 3 of Enterprise then went and did a season-long arc with great success, not to mention all the mini-arcs that made up season 4 of that show....
Funny. I wonder why they would cut Voyager from doing that yet allow DS9 to do it. ENT did it later but DS9 was before/at the same time as VOY. Stupid studio heads.
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