[I-Am-Zim]

Originally Posted by horatio

One could blame the Romulan side of Saavik.

True again. But, like the Khan/Chekov conundrum, Saavik's Romulan ancestry was never revealed on screen, and thus non-canon. But that is neither here nor there. It was still a great movie!

[jla1987]

Just to weigh in, I put Wrath of Khan lower on my list of favorites because the emotional impact is lessened by the third movie. Had I been around in 82, my opinion of it would probably be very different. I put Undiscovered Country and First Contact above it on my list of favorites, so it's not like I hate WoK or anything.

[horatio]

Same with me, I am also youngster and liked TUC and FC a bit more. Having seen it in the theatres, after years of no Trek around naturally has had a significant impact on the elder Trekkers.

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by horatio

Same with me, I am also youngster and liked TUC and FC a bit more. Having seen it in the theatres, after years of no Trek around naturally has had a significant impact on the elder Trekkers.

But try watching it as a stand alone (as it was originally produced).

[jla1987]

Originally Posted by Zardoz

But try watching it as a stand alone (as it was originally produced).

I have and I still like the other two more.

[kevin]

Originally Posted by horatio

One could blame the Romulan side of Saavik.

I'm not sure you even need to take that into account. I think Vulcans can lie perfectly well.

But their rationalisation process allows them to justify it as being the outcome of a logical process.

That's what Saavik did to get on the away team.

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by jla1987

I have and I still like the other two more.

I'm not huge fan TSFS, it's ok, but as a film it's lacking.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by kevin

I'm not sure you even need to take that into account. I think Vulcans can lie perfectly well.

But their rationalisation process allows them to justify it as being the outcome of a logical process.

That's what Saavik did to get on the away team.

Indeed, Vulcan logic is often little more than an empty catch phrase.

[Tiberius1964]

Well, against the spirit of this particular thread, TWoK is my second favourite of the ST films. But that doesn't mean it isn't without its problems.

The things that other people have pointed out as problems:
- Khan & Chekov recognizing each other
- star charts showing 6 planets, Reliant's scan would have shown 5 (or, more accurately, one less than is on the star chart)
- Saavik's use of "Damn"
All these things can be explained away, true; and while some explanations smack of retroactively modifying ST reality (such as having Chekov be on the Enterprise at the time of Space Seed but not part of the bridge crew, which is how he and Khan recognize each other) are, imo, fine. Otherwise we'd have to have the story spend a minute explaining this, and I'd rather not be spoon-fed like that. I don't mind if a movie leaves a few plot holes for me to figure out, and decide if the plot hole is fillable or not.

I liked Kirstie Alley's Saavik. As I said to a friend at a time who disliked Saavik's "Damn..." because Vulcans don't swear, my take was that I would be more interested in seeing a part-Vulcan fighting the same battles the younger Spock did, and losing them instead of (mostly) winning them.

[Samuel]

"Just one damn minute admiral."

Its not swearing. Its more colorful metaphors.