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  #11  
Old 07-29-2009, 10:22 AM
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kevin kevin is offline
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I thought the mortality theme, the ideas of the mistakes of youth (both Khan and Carol) coming back to hit you, the ideas of 'usefulness' were all well conveyed by the film, both overtly and subtly.

It blended action and personal drama well and contains some of Shatner's best performances as Kirk.

In terms of the overhaul to a more militaristic Starfleet - well, I don't want to trigger that old debate again but it seems not unlikely it was always a component - I'm a skoosh divided on uniforms etc.

The TMP costumes were among the worst ever designed, simply dreadful in every way, but the switch over to TWOK was perhaps too jarring. A better hybrid could perhaps have been created to ease the transition.

Gene Roddenberry showed with TMP he hadn't learned the lessons of 'The Cage'. He wanted to be cerebral, but his scripts, I don't think, were quite as smart as he perhaps thought. And he couldn't balance action and brains. That's why he needed others for that aspect.

Plus TMP was arguably a remake of 'Changling'.
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  #12  
Old 07-29-2009, 11:34 AM
erruve erruve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zardoz View Post
Well, I think during TOS all these actors thought it was a paycheck for awhile, then they'd move on, never giving this show a second thought.

Who knew it would become a huge, huge hit in syndication? Who knew that these actors would becoem typecast horribly by it?

If your talking GR, he signed his rigths away to Desilu in 64'. He had the oppertunity to buy them back in the mid 70's for a mere 100,000. He declined. After the Phase II/TMP debacle, Paramount didn't want GR near Trek anymore. So they gave him a ceremonial title, and a paycheck.

It's odd a few years later (1986) they let him pratically have total control over TNG.
They didn't know in 1966, but by the time TWOK had come out, the phenomenon was rolling. But I agree. They didn't know. They had no idea. That was the ending point of my non-point rambling post.

Posting while thinking through something is a problem I have. If I don't edit carefully, it makes no sense.
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  #13  
Old 07-29-2009, 12:36 PM
Arctus Baran Arctus Baran is offline
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STII:TWoK was and is a favorite of mine.

(even though after so many viewings, I start to daydream a little
while watching it)

It always bothered me about the age thing.

Real historical figures did many things after age 50,after 70....

Picard later took command of galaxy class at 50.

There was just too much wrong with that being
a trait of Kirk. TMP too, Kirk was not enough like
in TOS. Especially in the future, where lives can be longer,
and improved health.

Other than that, I did not think too deeply into it, was
focused more on other parts.

I find it very fascinating that I see many different views on it.
Each individual can watch the same movie or show, but
perceive it differently. Everyone is watching something different.

Of course watching it originally as a child, then watching
as an adult is a big chance as well, obviously, but I mean too
that it's like overlapped memories.

Interesting in the mind's view this stuff, only recently
has the human race has had so many recordings available,
all these dvds and we can re-live exactly what we saw over 25 years ago.

I just had a thought, I think it would have been funny, after
STIV, if they all did have to serve in a different fleet.

Maybe Kirk would have made a difference in a non Federation
galaxy.

Even in Generations, that bad attitude stayed with Kirk.

The uniforms were okay, served the purpose for a
Navy feel, for the combat.

I can understand how they were also bad, though.

It does not fit in with the exploration, science field.

When it comes down to it, Star Trek will always have military
combats or fist fights.

They still need to show that better future, minus
the grand technology, we have everything in the present,
that they have in the future.
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  #14  
Old 07-29-2009, 05:55 PM
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Vincent Cain Vincent Cain is offline
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TWOK will always be the most emotionally gripping, and involved film in the series for me.
That's probably why it still stands as my favourite to this day.
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  #15  
Old 07-30-2009, 12:35 AM
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wade8069 wade8069 is offline
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thanks you guys discussion, now i have a deep understanding about that.
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  #16  
Old 07-30-2009, 03:50 AM
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Zardoz Zardoz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erruve View Post
They didn't know in 1966, but by the time TWOK had come out, the phenomenon was rolling. But I agree. They didn't know. They had no idea. That was the ending point of my non-point rambling post.

Posting while thinking through something is a problem I have. If I don't edit carefully, it makes no sense.
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But rewatch this film, it plays as a last hurrah.
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  #17  
Old 07-30-2009, 04:49 AM
I-Am-Zim I-Am-Zim is offline
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I think TWOK is my second favorite Trek film right behind TUC. I thought TWOK was great. There were only three problems that I had with it. Khan's recognition of Chekov, Saavik's emotional "Damn" during the KM test as well as her "fibbing" about the regulations regarding no flag officers beaming into a hazardous situation without armed escort. To which Kirkreplied "there's no such regulation". And the fact that even with long range sensors and star charts they didn't know Ceti Alpha VI was gone. Vulcan's are not supposed to be able to lie. And as far as "canon" is concerned, we do not know for a fact that she was half Romulan. And the Chekov thing has been explained by fandom on several occasions, but it still doesn't justify the carelessness of the writers. Walter Koenig even said in an interview that he knew it was wrong, but he didn't want to mention it because he thought it might reduce his screen time. And didn't they scan the Ceti Alpha system before going to C.A.VI? Couldn't they tell that the orbit had been shifted? That bugged the crap outta me. Anyway, I liked TWOK very much. And Montalban was magnificent as Khan.
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  #18  
Old 07-30-2009, 05:00 AM
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horatio horatio is offline
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Well, the captain of that science vessels was one of the "I am dumb to make Kirk look smarter" types and perhaps Chekov only scanned for little lifeforms and not for big planets.

Didn't Spock claim that he did not lie but merely exaggerated or something like this?
And about that Vulcan rule of not lying, don't we also teach our children to always tell the truth and don't they quickly discover that a lie has its advantages?
Even when Vulcan kids are more disciplined, when you are in situation like in TWOK, dogma means death. Spock is obviously smart enough to bend his cultural rules in crucial situations, something he might have learned from a close friend.
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  #19  
Old 07-30-2009, 05:14 AM
I-Am-Zim I-Am-Zim is offline
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All true. But exaggerating, omitting, and choosing are different from actually "lying". It has been said on many, many occasions during the history of Star Trek that "Vulcans are incapable of lying." I know this rule has been broken. Especially by Spock - particularly in the episode: "The Menagerie". However, Kirk explained that by saying that Spock was half human and could be influenced by his human emotions. Either way, Saavik lied and fabricated a false regulation because she wanted to accompany Kirk on the away mission. But that's just one of my little pet peeves. It in no way detracted from my enjoyment of that movie as a whole.
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