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Old 07-29-2009, 12:52 AM
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Default Non-fans of TWoK....

TWoK is arguably one of the most favoured if not the most favoured overall of the Trek films. Still, there are dissenters and here's a chance for them to speak their mind.

Please note, though, that it would be nice if you could say why you're not fond of the film. "It sucks" isn't sufficiently illuminating.


Speaking for myself when I first saw TWoK in 1982 I quite liked it except for some of the production details. Most specifically I absolutely loathed the new uniforms. I just didn't think they were Star Trek. They looked very odd and seemed more at home in a film adaptation of an Honor Harrington novel.

Subsequent veiwings of the film found me ever more disappointed with it. I didn't like how some of the characters behaved, particularly Kirk. Yes, there were some good character moments and the film had good pacing and energy, but the logic flaws kept jarring me out of the story like a slap upside the back of my head.

I also disliked the sort of reset aspect of it. After TMP I was ready for the crew to seek out new adventures on the frontier again. Yet in TWoK Kirk was back to chafing behind a desk as an Admiral and the Enterprise was a freaking training ship manned by cadets with the familiar crew holding their hands. This was boldly going? I think not!

In the end I just can't accept TWoK (and what followed in its wake) as of the same continuity as what came before, even though I can still see the film's positive aspects. It's not a bad film in itself--indeed in of itself it's quite a decent film--but for me it's just not a good Star Trek film. It just misses on too many things.
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:34 AM
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Still, there are dissenters and here's a chance for them to speak their mind... "It sucks" isn't sufficiently illuminating.
Yeah, I'd fit that definition.
They're ok movies but I have problems with them.
They're like alternate universe versions. That's ok, but I do recognize that so much is changed spiritually/thematically and warped to those views that I just have to accept them as alternate versions and get on with life.
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:14 AM
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TWOK was the best film it could be for it's meager 11 million dollar budget. Paramount was anaimate that TWOK would not incurr the costs TMP did (But they forgot that 45 million figure also included the aborted Phase II show, for which sets, costumes, scripts had been created, and actors paid.)

I feel Nick and Harve did a great film with what they had to work with. Keep in mind also TWOK was to be the last Trek film. There was no plans to make another until TWOK became a suprise hit for Paramount.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:49 AM
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I just love watching Ricardo - I thought he stole every scene he was in - even from Shatner which is no mean feat! He was magnificent. Bravo Ricardo you will be missed.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:51 AM
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I just love watching Ricardo - I thought he stole every scene he was in - even from Shatner which is no mean feat! He was magnificent. Bravo Ricardo you will be missed.
Well it was a breakway for Ricardo since he was still on Fantasy Island at the time.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:52 AM
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I didn't like the uniforms either. I still don't like them. I don't like the cadet uniforms in XI either but I kind of see this sort of thing as silly (for myself) to get hung up on.

What I didn't like was the end.

I feel young.

WTF is up with that????? Being someone who has lost loved ones, I have a bit of an issue with that. I know they didn't want to end the movie on a down note but for goodness' sake, this was the wrong note.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by erruve View Post
I didn't like the uniforms either. I still don't like them. I don't like the cadet uniforms in XI either but I kind of see this sort of thing as silly (for myself) to get hung up on.

What I didn't like was the end.

I feel young.

WTF is up with that????? Being someone who has lost loved ones, I have a bit of an issue with that. I know they didn't want to end the movie on a down note but for goodness' sake, this was the wrong note.
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Ok, the whole overall theme was Kirk turning 50, and feeling old and useless. By the end of the film, he finds himself again, and realizes he's not old and useless.

TWOK was originally intended to be the final Trek film. Only after it made big bucks was the idea of Trek III even bandied about.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:21 AM
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Ok, the whole overall theme was Kirk turning 50, and feeling old and useless. By the end of the film, he finds himself again, and realizes he's not old and useless.

TWOK was originally intended to be the final Trek film. Only after it made big bucks was the idea of Trek III even bandied about.
I think that theme was somewhat drowned out by the whole, can't cheat death thing, which was a much larger issue. I'll submit the movie was unsuccessful in conveying it's major theme, if that is what it is supposed to be --> Jim isn't old and useless.

In retrospect, it's amusing they thought they could do what they did with that character (the affected one) and not address it, as if ST would then drop into a void with said person not in the ST universe. I understand this was an actor's position but it is pretty darned amusing!

This is more proof that we (all artists, creators etc) don't necessarily understand what we've done with our creations. We finish, kiss them good bye, and send them out there where they take on a life of their own, mutating until the we scream, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE MEANT.

Too bad. It is what it is. We don't own it any more. Artistic intent becomes divorced from the artistic & cultural result. You are left to flipping live with it. Thank goodness Nimoy figured this out.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by erruve View Post
I think that theme was somewhat drowned out by the whole, can't cheat death thing, which was a much larger issue. I'll submit the movie was unsuccessful in conveying it's major theme, if that is what it is supposed to be --> Jim isn't old and useless.

In retrospect, it's amusing they thought they could do what they did with that character (the affected one) and not address it, as if ST would then drop into a void with said person not in the ST universe. I understand this was an actor's position but it is pretty darned amusing!

This is more proof that we (all artists, creators etc) don't necessarily understand what we've done with our creations. We finish, kiss them good bye, and send them out there where they take on a life of their own, mutating until the we scream, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE MEANT.

Too bad. It is what it is. We don't own it any more. Artistic intent becomes divorced from the artistic & cultural result. You are left to flipping live with it. Thank goodness Nimoy figured this out.
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Well, I think during TOS all these actors thought it was a paycheck for awhile, then they'd move on, never giving this show a second thought.

Who knew it would become a huge, huge hit in syndication? Who knew that these actors would becoem typecast horribly by it?

If your talking GR, he signed his rigths away to Desilu in 64'. He had the oppertunity to buy them back in the mid 70's for a mere 100,000. He declined. After the Phase II/TMP debacle, Paramount didn't want GR near Trek anymore. So they gave him a ceremonial title, and a paycheck.

It's odd a few years later (1986) they let him pratically have total control over TNG.
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Old 07-29-2009, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Zardoz View Post
Well, I think during TOS all these actors thought it was a paycheck for awhile, then they'd move on, never giving this show a second thought.

Who knew it would become a huge, huge hit in syndication? Who knew that these actors would becoem typecast horribly by it?

If your talking GR, he signed his rigths away to Desilu in 64'. He had the oppertunity to buy them back in the mid 70's for a mere 100,000. He declined. After the Phase II/TMP debacle, Paramount didn't want GR near Trek anymore. So they gave him a ceremonial title, and a paycheck.

It's odd a few years later (1986) they let him pratically have total control over TNG.
Would it have been better or worse for GR to have regained control rights to ST? That is, if he had purchased them back.
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