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Old 02-27-2008, 07:37 PM
Lepton Lepton is offline
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Default If there is a villain, make him or her real and intelligent.

One of the things that I hate in movies and television is the depiction of the opposing side/enemy as largely amoral, deluded, egomaniacal, and arrogant to the point of ignorance. I despise "villains" that are flat, boring cliches of despotic boobs or sadistic maniacs.

The most interesting opponents are those that are intelligent, self-aware, politically-savvy, etc, etc. Off the top of my head, in Trek, examples would be the Romulan commander in Balance of Terror, perhaps even the female Romulan commander in The Enterprise Incident, General Chang to some degree in ST VI, and Khan to some degree in TWOK. I have a very hard time thinking of any other "villainous" characters in Trek that rise to the level of fully realized people that through experience or intelligence or sheer will are able to see themselves and the societies clearly and rise above their own social roles or their own world's ideologies. I mean, did Kirk ever meet his real match or Picard for that matter? Khan? No. Q? No. They are paper tigers, straw men.

So please, if there is going to be a villain, make the character a real person whose actions make sense and who has a real awareness of the world around him. Ben on Lost does not qualify for the kind of villain I am looking for, which of course, has me worried. Please give us a thoughtful and intelligent story. We don't need another "Nemesis", if you take my dual meaning.
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Old 02-27-2008, 07:39 PM
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That's a good point, in that often such action/adventure/fantasy films are as strong as their villain character, TWOK being a prime example. We know nothing about the character of Nero at this point, but I say hiring Bana to play him is a good sign toward achieving the goal you hope for, Lepton.
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:01 PM
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I agree, we need a "villian" who has an understandable, and even, to him, right reaon for doing what he's doing...we don't need arbitrary badness. Good conflict stories explore the fact that both sides believe they are right.

Star Trek sort of excelled at that (even managing a story in which the positive aspect of Hitler's Germany were discussed...would any show dare to do that now?).

From what I've seen of Abrams' work, we don't have to worry. He completely understands the ambiguity in conflict situations. He knows that "good" people are flawed and might even have bad motives. He knows that "bad" people can be acting with a passion for change they see as positive.
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:37 PM
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Maybe Nero will be more sophisticated. Maybe he will be bad but cool at the same time. Villians that try to hard to be evil really don't make to good of a villian. I think Nero has a good chance to get away from that and has a shot at being a good villian like Chang and Khan were to a degree as mentioned.
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:50 PM
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You know I like the madman.
Unpredictable...buy I love an evil genius...sophisticated and diabolical...you know the ones you never see coming

The Kahns
Dukats
The Loveless (wild wild west)

But I love the bond type too.
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:52 PM
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Guys that have a passion for disaster and destruction. Maybe Darth Sidious. That guy was evil.
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:16 PM
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Trek needs a good villain, the last decent one I think there was, was Soren in Generations. It's sad they couldn't do more with him. Mcdowell was great. That moment where he gets real close to Picard and says, "time is the fire in which we burn", you can see it in his eyes, he's dangerous, determined and obsessed and there's no reasoning with him.

I think the best villain in Trek was Khan and I think he was a good duet to Kirk, not his match, but certainly was a strong foil to him. The thing with villains is that people seem to write them and play them as evil. I think it's more interesting when they play them as people who think they're doing the right thing or the right thing for themselves. Play them as real people, real people who make bad choices, do bad things, but don't try to play the mustache twirling villain. That's what Shinzon was to me, he was a slimy, spoiled brat. Very boring. Second best villain in Trek, I think is Dukat, again someone that thinks they are doing the right thing, we can obviously see it's not the right thing, but they think it is, Dukat's doing it for his daughter, he's doing it for his people, he's doing it for Cardassia and it makes him real, more interesting.

Basically I think it comes down to that line of Picards, "Villains that twirl their mustaches are easy to spot, those that clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged." The ones you really have to worry about, you'll never see them coming. Maybe Nero will be that.
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RATEDNCC1701 View Post
Guys that have a passion for disaster and destruction. Maybe Darth Sidious. That guy was evil.
You know, Rated, in the starwars prequels the only character I could really route for was Palpatine. That's probably not what Lucas wanted, but I felt more for Palpatine than anyone else in that movie, well except Chewy.
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:20 PM
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I was rooting for him too....
It felt good when he won...
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:24 PM
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I lot of people liked Yoda and overlooked Palpatine. Chewy now that's interesting. He can rip a human limb from limb. Maybe something a Klingon would like to do.
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