The Official Star Trek Movie Forum

The Official Star Trek Movie Forum > Star Trek > Star Trek XI: The Movie > TOS Pasts
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 03-10-2008, 02:40 PM
RedShirtWalking's Avatar
RedShirtWalking RedShirtWalking is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,020
Default

You're jumping to conclusions. You assume that McCoy should have a superior knowledge of all physiology just because he's the Enterprise's Chief Medical Officer. How would he have obtained this knowledge? It's not like we had any spare Klingons running around in San Francisco during the TOS time frame. How could McCoy have an extensive knowledge of Klingon biology at a time when Klingons were the enemy? It just doesn't add up at all.

McCoy was painted as incompetent by Chang in the trial because it was a "kangaroo court" of sorts. McCoy wasn't really incompetent--we saw his actions in trying to save Chang, whose injuries were extensive. His inability to stop his bleeding wasn't a failure of McCoy, plain and simple.

See...that's the thing: you've read the novels and, while they are some damn good work, they're not canon.

It's not underselling the abilities of characters, it's about keeping them human and relatable. If they could do all these things you would want them to do, they wouldn't be nearly as interesting.

Uhura did not look incomptetent. That's your interpretation. She's not a translator. She's not a linguist. Period. Hoshi SATO was, but she was by no means an expert, either. Hoshi was supposed to be able to pick up languages like nobody else which is why Archer wanted her for the job. Making Uhura the communications officer who didn't need a UT is just unrealistic, even with a healthy suspension of disbelief.

Gene didn't create these characters the way you want to see them portrayed for a reason.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-10-2008, 03:54 PM
JBElliott's Avatar
JBElliott JBElliott is offline
Lieutenant Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 651
Default

I'm not jumping to conclusions at all. I am making logical judgements based on what's shown onscreen and stated in TOS.

Yeah, I'm assuming that the chief medical officer on the best ship in the fleet has superior knowledge of all physiology of the life forms in the Federation and their major enemies. Otherwise he wouldn't be the chief medical officer on that ship. That's not a stretch to assume about someone of McCoy's stature. Not a stretch at all. How did he get it? By studying. How would McCoy know about the anatomy of Klingon's? Most probably he learned from the database of knowledge built up from scans performed on Klingon's that had been captures in the various Federation/Klingon confrontations. There were a handful of opportunities shown in TOS. McCoy stated something about not being familiar enough with Klingon physiology in UC. That's why he's unfairly painted as incompetent.

Whether the books are canon or not is irrelevant. The crew we see are members of the best ship in the fleet. It's not a stretch to guess they're the best at what they do. Otherwise they wouldn't be on the Enterprise and it wouldn't be the best ship in the fleet.

The character of Jason Bourne was perfectly relatable and human, yet he was "uber-competent" and the stories and movies were compelling and entertaining. It's possible to have people know what they're doing and be relatable and human, all it takes is good writing.

Uhura lives in the 23rd century where the Federation had long been established and contact with Klingons was not uncommon. Given those to points of canon, it's not a stretch to assume she'd know a lot of languages, including Klingon. That she didn't made her look incompetent.

But Gene did create the characters as I want them. Kirk and Spock are uber-competent. So is Scotty. So is McCoy (at least he was shown that way at times in TOS). We don't really know much about Uhura, Sulu or Chekhov because they didn't have the screen time and character development as the four senior officers. Also, the supporting crew was often times supposed to be shown as more competent, but Shatner often had the scripts re-written so he got the lines that should have gone to other crew members. TNG showed its crew that way, which is what Gene wanted.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-10-2008, 04:08 PM
RedShirtWalking's Avatar
RedShirtWalking RedShirtWalking is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,020
Default

Comparing Jason Bourne and Star Trek is comparing an apple to an orange.

The only language, other than English, that we knew Uhura knew was Swahili. That's it. If she knew all these languages, there wouldn't be a Universal Translator, thanks.

Were Kirk and Spock "uber-competent"? Yes, but they also made mistakes. They're humanity was always on display, as it always was with the other characters.

Like I said, you've jumped to WAY too many conclusions. There's no logic in your premise. Star Trek is based on HUMANITY and humans are flawed.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 03-10-2008, 04:23 PM
MissionTrek08's Avatar
MissionTrek08 MissionTrek08 is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,562
Default

And if anything else, this crew is going to display less experience and more flaws because this is the beginning of their collective adventure. The entire point of their story is discovering the galaxy, not repeated confirmation of their mastery in it.
__________________

MISSION:TREK's in-depth review of STAR TREK


Proud member of the Friends of Zardoz Association. Avatar courtesy of Eliza's House of Avatars with three convenient locations near you. Free balloons for the kids!
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 03-10-2008, 04:38 PM
RedShirtWalking's Avatar
RedShirtWalking RedShirtWalking is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,020
Default

Exactly. That's my ultimate point. They weren't even masters during the original five year mission. They were resourceful and heroic and beyond reproach but it took time to hone those skills. They need to be human and not super-human.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 03-11-2008, 01:59 AM
dcd1701's Avatar
dcd1701 dcd1701 is offline
Midshipman
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6
Default I agree with RedShirt

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedShirtWalking View Post
Exactly. That's my ultimate point. They weren't even masters during the original five year mission. They were resourceful and heroic and beyond reproach but it took time to hone those skills. They need to be human and not super-human.
I have to agree with RedShirt on this topic. If we expected every officer on the Enterprise to be perfect at everything they do all of the time, there would be no point in watching. There would be no conflict, There would be no humanity on the show. Better to have an Enterprise run by The Collective who feel they are perfect and can do no wrong.

I like seeing the flaws of the characters. I'll agree that some of the writing in the later movies was a bit weak, but in the grand scheme of things, it didnt take away from what the characters were and what they were all about.

Besides, like of of us, except maybe Roger Clemens, don't we all end up losing a little bit of our sharpness as we get older. Maybe if the crew were doping up on 'roids they would have continued there mastery to the high level we expect when they were well into their senior years in Starfleet.

Yes, I am joking a bit in my last paragraph, but simply trying to make a point. If the Enterprise crew was perfect or even almost perfect on every mission, what would be the point in watching? If we know that everything will be done the way it is supposed to with no skew from the norm, it would be boring. The POSSIBILITY of failure or action outside the norm is what makes it so enjoyable.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 03-11-2008, 02:58 AM
Zardoz's Avatar
Zardoz Zardoz is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere In The Future
Posts: 31,432
Default

Yeah, I have to lean towards RedShirt on this one too. Trek 6 established McCoy's knowlege of Kilngon antomy was lacking, the conspitors knew it too. They used it to help frame Kirk and McCoy for Gorkon's death.

I am sure McCoy has general knowlege of Klingons, but depth and detail to a major operation, or repair the level of damage we saw? Probably not.
__________________
"High Priestesses Of Zardoz" By Eliza's Starbase Of Avatars Copyright 2009."
"Zardoz Speaks To You, His Choosen Trek Fans."
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 03-11-2008, 11:28 AM
JBElliott's Avatar
JBElliott JBElliott is offline
Lieutenant Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 651
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedShirtWalking View Post
Comparing Jason Bourne and Star Trek is comparing an apple to an orange.
Not when someone says that uber-competent characters can't be human and relatable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedShirtWalking View Post
The only language, other than English, that we knew Uhura knew was Swahili. That's it. If she knew all these languages, there wouldn't be a Universal Translator, thanks.
What would she do if the UT broke? Or she was in a landing party and didn't have access to one? Why wouldn't SFA teach all kinds of languages to it's communications officers? It seems pretty irresponsible for SF to let it's communications officers out of the Academy knowing only two languages and both of them being Earth languages. That hardly qualifies that officer for a position on the best ship in the fleet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedShirtWalking View Post
Were Kirk and Spock "uber-competent"? Yes, but they also made mistakes. They're humanity was always on display, as it always was with the other characters.
No one said that the characters couldn't make mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedShirtWalking View Post
Like I said, you've jumped to WAY too many conclusions. There's no logic in your premise. Star Trek is based on HUMANITY and humans are flawed.
I'm jumping to no conclusions at all. Just drawing logical conclusions from the statements made on the shows. That conclusion is that the crew of the Enterprise should be the best and brightest that SF has to offer. Not perfect, but as close as humanly (and non-humanly) possible and always striving to be better.

You're being speciest with all your concentration on humanity. I'm sure Spock would find it a bit insulting.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 03-11-2008, 11:37 AM
MissionTrek08's Avatar
MissionTrek08 MissionTrek08 is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBElliott View Post
What would she do if the UT broke? Or she was in a landing party and didn't have access to one? Why wouldn't SFA teach all kinds of languages to it's communications officers? It seems pretty irresponsible for SF to let it's communications officers out of the Academy knowing only two languages and both of them being Earth languages. That hardly qualifies that officer for a position on the best ship in the fleet.
Going along with your hypotheticals... a communications cadet learning hundreds of languages across the known galaxy would never leave the Academy to ever serve usefully on a starship, because their training would take decades.

Much more practical to teach an engineer to fix the UT if it breaks, rather than school countless comm officers in dozens of languages over years and years of advanced study.
__________________

MISSION:TREK's in-depth review of STAR TREK


Proud member of the Friends of Zardoz Association. Avatar courtesy of Eliza's House of Avatars with three convenient locations near you. Free balloons for the kids!
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 03-11-2008, 11:47 AM
Zardoz's Avatar
Zardoz Zardoz is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere In The Future
Posts: 31,432
Default

I can see Uhura fixing her console (including the UT). SFA would teach it's communications officers that, I belive.
__________________
"High Priestesses Of Zardoz" By Eliza's Starbase Of Avatars Copyright 2009."
"Zardoz Speaks To You, His Choosen Trek Fans."
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:44 PM.


Forum theme courtesy of Mark Lambert
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2009 by Paramount Pictures. STAR TREK and all related
marks and logos are trademarks of CBS Studios Inc. All Rights Reserved.