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Old 07-01-2009, 04:11 AM
enzo.box enzo.box is offline
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Default The black holes in this movie are scientifically correct...

I read around the forum about everyone complaining that the black holes in the movie are scientifically bull****. I think that none of these people understand the actual physics of a black hole.

See, when a planet (say vulcan) ends up in a black hole, Then orbiting sattelites would remain in their orbit. The black hole only generates as much gravity as the material it devoured would. So, the black whole that devoured Vulcan, is now simply in orbit around the vulcan sun. It's just a lot smaller, but it still has the same amount of gravity.

Reason that things get sucked in so fast? Think of it. The black hole is thousands of times smaller than vulcan, yet projects the same amound of gravity. If you get within a few kilometers, you get sucked in. See, when you are in orbit around vulcan, you are about 150 kilometers above the surface, but more importantly, you are about 7000 kilometers above Vulcans core. Imagine all the gravity produced by all the mass of vulcan concentrated in one point.

As i said, over large distances the gravity will be the same, but don't come close by... you WILL get sucked in.

And the black holes that Nero and Spock Prime came trough were only ruptures in spacetime, they were no seperate holes on their own. The rupture simply closed and the black hole remained where it was, in the 24th century to be precise.

So there are now 2 new black holes in the Alterniverse.

One is quietly orbiting Vulcans sun.

The second is in a place where there was previously a nebula and nero's ship. This also explains why the enterprise was pulled towards the black hole of nero's ship: the nebula gasses around them got pulled in faster then the enterprise (physics 101), thus adding their mass to the black hole, increasing its gravity and as such making it heavier. In the end, the Nero Hole represents the gravity of Nero's ship and the nebula around it.

No galaxy devouring hole here.

And yes, i am about to finish my physics study.
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:02 AM
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I imagine it like that:



(Gravity vs. distance)
Blue: Vulcan as we knew it.
Red: New Vulcan.
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo.box View Post
I read around the forum about everyone complaining that the black holes in the movie are scientifically bull****. I think that none of these people understand the actual physics of a black hole.

See, when a planet (say vulcan) ends up in a black hole, Then orbiting sattelites would remain in their orbit. The black hole only generates as much gravity as the material it devoured would. So, the black whole that devoured Vulcan, is now simply in orbit around the vulcan sun. It's just a lot smaller, but it still has the same amount of gravity.

Reason that things get sucked in so fast? Think of it. The black hole is thousands of times smaller than vulcan, yet projects the same amound of gravity. If you get within a few kilometers, you get sucked in. See, when you are in orbit around vulcan, you are about 150 kilometers above the surface, but more importantly, you are about 7000 kilometers above Vulcans core. Imagine all the gravity produced by all the mass of vulcan concentrated in one point.

As i said, over large distances the gravity will be the same, but don't come close by... you WILL get sucked in.

And the black holes that Nero and Spock Prime came trough were only ruptures in spacetime, they were no seperate holes on their own. The rupture simply closed and the black hole remained where it was, in the 24th century to be precise.

So there are now 2 new black holes in the Alterniverse.

One is quietly orbiting Vulcans sun.

The second is in a place where there was previously a nebula and nero's ship. This also explains why the enterprise was pulled towards the black hole of nero's ship: the nebula gasses around them got pulled in faster then the enterprise (physics 101), thus adding their mass to the black hole, increasing its gravity and as such making it heavier. In the end, the Nero Hole represents the gravity of Nero's ship and the nebula around it.

No galaxy devouring hole here.

And yes, i am about to finish my physics study.

Tiny Black Holes are theoretical right now But generally speaking to create a black hole one needs several solar masses which if produced at the centre of Vulcan would instantly collapse the Planet and draw any moon into range which would crumble at the tidal forces between itself and the singularity.

Now a small black hole however they are produced would have a small Event Horizon and aslong as the the mass is significantly above the Planck Mass then a Black hole is possible and the effects in the film would be possible without having the solar mass of any star.

The Red Matter was still Silly.
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:38 AM
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You're right about the red matter. I guess it was their excuse for not needing several solar masses

btw, i don't get the graph... what are the values representing?
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Old 07-01-2009, 07:33 AM
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Red Matter is about as silly as Protomatter in the Genesis Matrix, or the way Genesis works, or Dilithium Crystals.

It works as a substance we just don't know anything about, so it can serve as a catalyst to produce something else, such as enough energy for Warp when channeling Matter and Antimatter, or a way to create a Singularity without an ungodly amount of mass being created.
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Old 07-01-2009, 07:44 AM
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Red Matter is about as silly as Protomatter in the Genesis Matrix, or the way Genesis works, or Dilithium Crystals.

It works as a substance we just don't know anything about, so it can serve as a catalyst to produce something else, such as enough energy for Warp when channeling Matter and Antimatter, or a way to create a Singularity without an ungodly amount of mass being created.
1. Protomatter and Dilithium aren't called Red Matter.
2. And they don't look like High Gloss Behr paint.
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Old 07-01-2009, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo.box View Post
btw, i don't get the graph... what are the values representing?
Abscissa: distance
Ordinate: gravity.
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Old 07-01-2009, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo.box View Post
I read around the forum about everyone complaining that the black holes in the movie are scientifically bull****. I think that none of these people understand the actual physics of a black hole.

See, when a planet (say vulcan) ends up in a black hole, Then orbiting sattelites would remain in their orbit. The black hole only generates as much gravity as the material it devoured would. So, the black whole that devoured Vulcan, is now simply in orbit around the vulcan sun. It's just a lot smaller, but it still has the same amount of gravity.

Reason that things get sucked in so fast? Think of it. The black hole is thousands of times smaller than vulcan, yet projects the same amound of gravity. If you get within a few kilometers, you get sucked in. See, when you are in orbit around vulcan, you are about 150 kilometers above the surface, but more importantly, you are about 7000 kilometers above Vulcans core. Imagine all the gravity produced by all the mass of vulcan concentrated in one point.

As i said, over large distances the gravity will be the same, but don't come close by... you WILL get sucked in.

And the black holes that Nero and Spock Prime came trough were only ruptures in spacetime, they were no seperate holes on their own. The rupture simply closed and the black hole remained where it was, in the 24th century to be precise.

So there are now 2 new black holes in the Alterniverse.

One is quietly orbiting Vulcans sun.

The second is in a place where there was previously a nebula and nero's ship. This also explains why the enterprise was pulled towards the black hole of nero's ship: the nebula gasses around them got pulled in faster then the enterprise (physics 101), thus adding their mass to the black hole, increasing its gravity and as such making it heavier. In the end, the Nero Hole represents the gravity of Nero's ship and the nebula around it.

No galaxy devouring hole here.

And yes, i am about to finish my physics study.
I think most complaints about the black holes in the movie have to with the fact the Narada and Jellyfish survived being sucked into a blackhole and then were "spit" out into the alternate universe. If black holes are portals into other universes then I imagine you would be "spit" out in the form of radiation of some sort. I have no schooling in this area, I just think all your matter would be ripped apart and reduced to basic particles or energy.
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Last edited by MrQ1701 : 07-01-2009 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 07-01-2009, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo.box View Post
I read around the forum about everyone complaining that the black holes in the movie are scientifically bull****. I think that none of these people understand the actual physics of a black hole.

See, when a planet (say vulcan) ends up in a black hole, Then orbiting sattelites would remain in their orbit. The black hole only generates as much gravity as the material it devoured would. So, the black whole that devoured Vulcan, is now simply in orbit around the vulcan sun. It's just a lot smaller, but it still has the same amount of gravity.

Reason that things get sucked in so fast? Think of it. The black hole is thousands of times smaller than vulcan, yet projects the same amound of gravity. If you get within a few kilometers, you get sucked in. See, when you are in orbit around vulcan, you are about 150 kilometers above the surface, but more importantly, you are about 7000 kilometers above Vulcans core. Imagine all the gravity produced by all the mass of vulcan concentrated in one point.

As i said, over large distances the gravity will be the same, but don't come close by... you WILL get sucked in.

And the black holes that Nero and Spock Prime came trough were only ruptures in spacetime, they were no seperate holes on their own. The rupture simply closed and the black hole remained where it was, in the 24th century to be precise.

So there are now 2 new black holes in the Alterniverse.

One is quietly orbiting Vulcans sun.

The second is in a place where there was previously a nebula and nero's ship. This also explains why the enterprise was pulled towards the black hole of nero's ship: the nebula gasses around them got pulled in faster then the enterprise (physics 101), thus adding their mass to the black hole, increasing its gravity and as such making it heavier. In the end, the Nero Hole represents the gravity of Nero's ship and the nebula around it.

No galaxy devouring hole here.

And yes, i am about to finish my physics study.
Thanks for the insight. Not that I was losing sleep over the Black holes anyways, since I have no particular physics expertise I shall in fact take your actual study of it as being more informed!

I'm sure some others may well add more!

Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo.box View Post
You're right about the red matter. I guess it was their excuse for not needing several solar masses
I took it as one of those frequent Star Trek 'miracle' fixes that don't quite get explained in detail!
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Old 07-01-2009, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrQ1701 View Post
I think most complaints about the black holes in the movie have to with the fact the Narada and Jellyfish survived being sucked into a blackhole and then were "spit" out into the alternate universe. If black holes are portals into other universes then I imagine you would be "spit" out in the form of radiation of some sort. I have no schooling in this area, I just think all your matter would be ripped apart and reduced to basic particles or energy.
That's true too.
Black holes don't conduct matter.
If you go through one you come out as energy
A tunnel through space and time is called a whole and I've only read some speculative documents on connection with the two.
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