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  #21  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Humans and the UFP are democratic and value life above all. Klingons are aristocrats who value death above all.

What would happen in 90% of sci-fi? Right, the good humans would shoot the evil Klingons in the a**.
What happens in Trek? Humans and Klingons have lethal conflicts, but the Federation tries to peacefully coexist with these warrior aliens. That's quintessential Trek.

By the way, the Klingons are not humanized. They are portrayed as the very opposite of humans in these two important aspects I mentioned. The key to live together with them in a fragile peace is to not humanize them, to accept them and their culture for what they are, something not-human.
Klingons are not at the level the humans have evolved to in the future they live, but i believe are meant to represent how humans used to think and live, so humans at a low stage of cultural and societal evolution. Romulans we know are modeled on the Romans.

Trek is about forging a peaceful co-existance with those different from you. This is why you would never have a Predator or 'Alien' type of alien on Trek, which is pure evil and must be killed. They tried to do this with the Borg in FC and it didn't work. The good/evil dynamic doesn't work so well on Trek. This is why i didn't like the movie version of Nero. This is simplistic conflict resolution, label the enemy evil, and eliminate them.
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  #22  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:34 PM
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I have to say, I never found Soran a great villain. Maybe because in part he wasn't even being bad for the sake of it. He was just driven to do whatever it took to return to The Nexus.

(Of course all he really needed was a small ship and an engine that would get him close enough to be taken into the Nexus as the ship was torn apart - all the scheme he actually went to was totally ridiculous and unwarranted.

And they say the new film is dumb! )
Wasn't there a line in GEN which stated that flying with a ship into the Nexus would not work?

"He wasn't even being bad for the sake of it", isn't that realistic? The folks at the top might just be power-hungry, power for the sake of power, but the masses who execute their orders might just try to enhance their career.

To phrase it differently, Hitler wasn't scary. That John Doe helped him was.

Same with Soran, an ordinary guy who does not give a damn about anything anymore after he has learned how to reach eternity ("The Ninth Gate" tells a similar story and portrays this evolution).
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  #23  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
I have to say, I never found Soran a great villain. Maybe because in part he wasn't even being bad for the sake of it. He was just driven to do whatever it took to return to The Nexus.

(Of course all he really needed was a small ship and an engine that would get him close enough to be taken into the Nexus as the ship was torn apart - all the scheme he actually went to was totally ridiculous and unwarranted.

And they say the new film is dumb! )
Where do you get the idea that all Soran needed to do was use a ship? It was explained in the movie that you are more likely to DIE rather than be absorbed by the Nexus if you tried to enter it using a ship. Sure, there were people absorbed while ships were ripped apart, but they did not influence this outcome. Would you want to take the gamble?

The dumb part about Generations was Picard leaving the Nexus without going all the way back in time where Soran's apprehension would have been a simple matter. This came up in a thread before and a link to an alternate ending was posted! (Fan made on Youtube)
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Last edited by MrQ1701 : 06-30-2009 at 12:41 PM.
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  #24  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by chator View Post
Klingons are not at the level the humans have evolved to in the future they live, but i believe are meant to represent how humans used to think and live, so humans at a low stage of cultural and societal evolution. Romulans we know are modeled on the Romans.

Trek is about forging a peaceful co-existance with those different from you. This is why you would never have a Predator or 'Alien' type of alien on Trek, which is pure evil and must be killed. They tried to do this with the Borg in FC and it didn't work. The good/evil dynamic doesn't work so well on Trek. This is why i didn't like the movie version of Nero. This is simplistic conflict resolution, label the enemy evil, and eliminate them.
I'd phrase it like this, the Borg worked better in the few TNG episodes where they rather represented the horrors of collectivism (that culminated in "I, Borg" with the very actual idea that you cannot defeat your enemies by abandoning your values.) than the more physical horrors of being assimilated which were emphasized in FC and the ensuing Borg stories in VOY.
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  #25  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:38 PM
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I second that. Soran was a great villain, perhaps because he was realistic?
"I don't give a damn" is more often the source of evil than "I wanna see the world burn".
I agree with this completely. The "I wanna see the world burn" villain may as well have a long mustache that he twirls all the time!

What made Soran evil was that his happiness was more important than an entire planets population. THAT IS COLD BLOODED!!
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  #26  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:44 PM
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I think it is time to quote Robert Frost:

Fire and Ice

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To know that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
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  #27  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:46 PM
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From the interview it looks like Abrams feels its important that Trek has a villian character. That it be contest between good/evil.
Bennett said the same thing after being given the job for ST2, that TMP lacked a strong villain and it really hurt it. He had never seen TOS. But when he did go through them all to understand the show and its characters it didnt take him long to pick Khan. There was arguably no greater good/evil battle in the entire series. It worked quite well if you ask me and is why it is constantly held up as the best of all the movies.
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  #28  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:50 PM
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I strongly disagree. Without Montalban's performance, Khan would have been little more than Kruge or other forgetable villains. TWOK is about life and death, about Kirk, his errors and his misconceptions.

Kirk screwed up when he did not raise the shields, so it is obviously not simply about good vs. evil.
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  #29  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Wasn't there a line in GEN which stated that flying with a ship into the Nexus would not work?

"He wasn't even being bad for the sake of it", isn't that realistic? The folks at the top might just be power-hungry, power for the sake of power, but the masses who execute their orders might just try to enhance their career.

To phrase it differently, Hitler wasn't scary. That John Doe helped him was.

Same with Soran, an ordinary guy who does not give a damn about anything anymore after he has learned how to reach eternity ("The Ninth Gate" tells a similar story and portrays this evolution).
Sorry, H, he still didn't work for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrQ1701 View Post
Where do you get the idea that all Soran needed to do was use a ship? It was explained in the movie that you are more likely to DIE rather than be absorbed by the Nexus if you tried to enter it using a ship. Sure, there were people absorbed while ships were ripped apart, but they did not influence this outcome. Would you want to take the gamble?
All he has to do is get close enough for one of the tendrils to catch him. In the film, the Enterprise wasn't even inside The Nexus, it just got clipped by one of said tendrils and off Kirk went to happyland.

I have no idea if the tendrils attract to humans or whether it was uncannily good fortune that it was just where Kirk happened to be, but as long as he could get close enough then when it catches his ship, he's off.

You'd think that if he was any kind of scientist worth his salt he would have spent 78 years working on that rather than (funnily enough) getting involved with the Duras Sisters (who just happen to have had a beef with Picard in the past).

Not to mention that said gravitational distortions that Soran relied upon wouldn't actually work the way they did in the film. In order for his plan to work the nexus wouldn't be redirected until after the planet was destroyed, so he would have been dead anyway.

So, wonky science thrown in for good measure.
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Last edited by kevin : 06-30-2009 at 12:58 PM.
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  #30  
Old 06-30-2009, 01:02 PM
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Sorry, H, he still didn't work for me.
Perhaps it has also something to do with, well, that GEN is one of those two TV-like, non-epic TNG movies?
All the danger (destroying the population of a planet) is in the dialogue and the harm we actually see is caused by the other villains in the movie, so Soran is being pushed a bit away from the spotlight.

The only thing that bugged me (although I only noticed it after having seen the movie several times) was that the rocket reached the sun in a few seconds. Forgiveable compared to the alternative, that Picard and Soran just stand around for a few minutes and chit-chat.
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