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  #1  
Old 06-23-2009, 12:07 AM
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Default Countdown Talk

I know a few other threads already exist on the Countdown comics/graphic novel, so no links please! I want to create a new discussion about it, as i am going through it now. My first impression is that i wish this was the movie, i think it is better written overall. I like the way Spock is written and Nero, it provides alot of crucial backstory and i luv seeing TNG characters like Data and Picard. I'm glad they decided to do this because just creating a new timeline leaves us "old" trekkers in a lurch, we need something to connect the universe we know with this new one that the film is launching. Countdown does this! But i understand why this wasn't the film, because then the film would not have been a reboot, but a sequel. And if the sequel failed at the box office, there would be no prequel-reboot to follow it!

Some thoughts: I like Picard as Ambassador to Vulcan, this makes sense-Picard's mind-meld with Sarek.

I don't really like Captain Data, i always thought of Data as a secondary, not a primary character. Plus, i'm not sure an android has all the qualities a Captain needs to have. No gut instinct, for example. I'd like to see him as Riker's Number one. Riker/Data/Worf make an awesome team, even without Picard.

Last edited by chator : 06-23-2009 at 05:26 AM.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:00 AM
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i thought it awesome to see B4 finally transform into data. alot of fans were wondering what might happen in the future after nemesis and here it is. This comic story reminds me of Generations alot except it's been flipped to where TNG has like 15 to 30 minutes of fame, then goes to TOS. all-in-all this story with the comic and movie combined is very good.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:35 AM
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The story of Nero is lost in the Star Trek movie. All we get is a charicature of a generic bad guy out for revenge for some preceived injustice. The comic and film together tell one story. The story of how Nero turned to the dark side. Sound familiar? The material in the comic tells a better story of how this can happen than the prequel Star Wars films did, IMO. Had they done this the Star Wars accusations would have been all over the place. Plus, the real purpose of the film was to show how the O.S. crew got together for their first mission.

I just realized Alternate Kirk just committed genocide against the last of the 24th c. Romulans in the Prime Universe.
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Old 06-23-2009, 07:03 AM
TamarinaDC TamarinaDC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chator View Post

I just realized Alternate Kirk just committed genocide against the last of the 24th c. Romulans in the Prime Universe.
I have not read Countdown yet- is this a reference to some act of Kirk in the comic? Because in the STXI universe, Kirk offers the Romulans aid before they get sucked into the black hole, and Nero refuses it. This isn't really Kirk's fault. Further, I'm sure that, like Vulcan, there were at least a FEW Romulans off-world when the disaster struck, so theyre may indeed be some remaining 24th century Romulans in the Prime universe. The Romulans had an "Empire" not just one planet- maybe there are several Romulan colony worlds with thriving Romulan populations. The Vulcans, on the other hand, thended to stay close to home and did not, as I recall, ever express colonial ambitions- much to their dismay, as it turns out. And no, I don't count Sybok and his band of nutters because I'm holding true to DC Fontana's original "Spock is an only child" hypothesis and sticking to it. STV may be considered canon, but I consider it a mess and have chosen to ignore it.
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Old 06-23-2009, 07:31 AM
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I had to read the premise on Memory Alpha as trying to Amazon it didn't happen. I think they need to make an Omnibus. I hate having individual issues and the price for issue 1 is astronomical in comparison with the remaining issues.

Tamarina, I think we can rest assured that the events of Star Trek V are negated. That's the only movie I don't own.

Also, Chator, how do you rationalize Kirk committing genocide against the Romulans? That was historically going to happen anyway. It is a cosmic inevitability. Nero tried to take advantage of the time travel and alter it the way he saw fit. Besides, there is still hope for Romulus. As I mentioned in another thread, this timeline gives Ambassador Spock a way to bring Unity to the Romulans and Vulcans. Eventually, with the destruction of Romulus in the future and with Vulcans still struggling, the two will inevitably reunify- Thus saving both people.
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Old 06-23-2009, 09:22 AM
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A few good points in here -

Countdown itself. I like it. It's divisive for some people depending on what one accepts as canon. As a general rule I stick with the aired TV shows and movies. However, I have bent this rule for Countdown as it was written off the movie script for the express purpose of setting up elements of the film.

Therefore, until any actual aired material shows up to openly contradict it's content's, I take it as the 'official' account of the events prior to the Narada's arrival at the start of the film. And with that in mind, it's very useful for background information about Nero in particular.

A few people might try and tell others to disregard it, as it's not popular with all. But as I'm perfectly able to decide for myself, I'd say make up your own mind if you want to use it or not in conjunction with the film.

Now the problems. If one does want to follow it, then it's clear that Nero suffers terribly in the film as a result of too little of his motivation making it into the film. The reasons why the Hobus star is so dangerous, the reason Nero is angrt at Spock and the Vulcan's in particular is all in there and doesn't translate into the film.

However, Chator's observation that Nero is not the point of the film is true. The point of the film was introducing the crew and getting them to that end scene where they set out together on the Enterprise.

As for genocide - well, less so. It depends on how you take the film. Nero does not mention survivors in the film, but we must presume they existed (outwith Nero and his crew) but there may be in the 24th Century. If there are survivors then what he does is not genocide.

Nero had to be stopped.

Also, we can infer that in the new universe Romulus should be ok, as they have significant foreknowledge of the Hobus Star.
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:55 PM
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Just finished Countdown. Awesome! Totally worth a motion picture treatment. I think if it had gotten it, it would have been an awesome film and made Paramount a boat load of money.

Thanks for convincing me to invest in getting it guys, it answers alot of questions and raises a few more, such as if Worf survived Nero's attack. Will we ever know? And do TNG stories end here, with the end of this comic?
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chator View Post
I just realized Alternate Kirk just committed genocide against the last of the 24th c. Romulans in the Prime Universe.
You really, really need to check the definition of "genocide".

What genocide is: killing or trying to kill someone (theretically, it may even be just one person) just because of a (racial, ethnic...) group they belong to, aiming to exterminate the group.

What genocide certainly is not: killing or not saving the lives a bunch of dangerous, heavily armed psycho criminals because they are endangering the galaxy and destroying planets (and are determined to continue so).

How many Romulans are or aren't there in this or that timeline, makes no difference at all.


Oh, and Countdown is good, I agree with most of that has been said here. I read it before watching the movie, so I had no problems understanding the story and Nero's motivations. Are they really that murky without having read Countdown?
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Last edited by DevilEyes : 06-23-2009 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:22 PM
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I like your definition DevilEyes, but if Nero's band of Romulans are the only Romulans left in the 24th c., then killing them is like killing the last group of an endangered species, regardless if they are criminals, killing them is criminal if it can be avoided. I'm sure you will argue it could not have been avoided, but i'm not so sure. Kirk seemed to have had a choice in deciding to destroy them.
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chator View Post
I just realized Alternate Kirk just committed genocide against the last of the 24th c. Romulans in the Prime Universe.
First, there are Romulan survivors besides Nero and his bunch in the 24th century, just like there are Vulcan survivors besides the few the Enterprise rescued in the 23rd century.
Second, genoicide is trying to eradicate the entire population of a culture or nation or religion, not killing some of the last ones of that species from another universe in order to prevent them from continuing their genocidal mission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chator View Post
I like your definition DevilEyes, but if Nero's band of Romulans are the only Romulans left in the 24th c., then killing them is like killing the last group of an endangered species, regardless if they are criminals, killing them is criminal if it can be avoided. I'm sure you will argue it could not have been avoided, but i'm not so sure. Kirk seemed to have had a choice in deciding to destroy them.
Kirk offered to help Nero*, yet Nero declined. Guess you would have beamed on a ship being sucked into this black hole full of Romulans who don't wanna be rescued and intend to kill you instead.

* - OK, Spock did want to blow them to hell before Nero declined the offer. I can understand that this seems a bit weird, but the scene was more about how Kirk has learned something from Spock, going by the book, and Spock has learned something from Kirk, going with your gut feeling, than about Spock's ethics.

Last edited by horatio : 06-23-2009 at 04:27 PM.
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