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View Poll Results: Is the Alternate Federation More Powerful Now Than in the Prime Universe?
Yes 11 18.64%
No 15 25.42%
Insufficient Information 33 55.93%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 06-22-2009, 10:43 AM
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Well I would say the nemesis comparison is partially unfounded as it was set a century later - a century's further transporter development may have ironed out some of the motion issues.

And the transport from planet to ship was not current Starfleet transporter tech. It was based on a theory of the time, that Spock used future proof of to bring forward in the timeline.
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  #22  
Old 06-22-2009, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by DevilEyes View Post
Well the question is whether they are stronger or weaker, and the loss of any ships doesn't make them stronger than they otherwise would've been, for sure. Although the other two points are far more important.

OTOH I don't see evidence of anything making them stronger. How do we know that Spock will even decide to share the future technology?
I think that we must also consider whether the Federation has become more technologically advanced as a result of reprioritizing itself after the loss of the Kelvin.
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  #23  
Old 06-22-2009, 10:56 AM
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Thats all fine and good and says how something is supposed to work. How about... there is beaming with relative speed between a ship and a stationary person on a planet. Then add a person that is moving. Now its relative speed between three and the possibility of something going wrong grows exponentially. Hey why not? Sounds reasonable... unless the old 'technology fixed that problem' argument is used.
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  #24  
Old 06-22-2009, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Well I would say the nemesis comparison is partially unfounded as it was set a century later - a century's further transporter development may have ironed out some of the motion issues.
I did say "maybe its an apples and oranges comparison"!! I figured the time frame would be mentioned.

Does anyone remember examples of objects being transported while they were in motion during TOS or TOS movies? I'm looking for fast moving examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
And the transport from planet to ship was not current Starfleet transporter tech. It was based on a theory of the time, that Spock used future proof of to bring forward in the timeline.
I would say it was merely a software or programming issue, NOT a hardware issue, so in a way the "current" technology in the movie was capable of the miraculous transport we witnessed. It's not like Spock built new sensors and a transmitter coil (if transporters have them!) in order to gain this huge leap in ability. He plugged an equation in the computer and "wha-la!"
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  #25  
Old 06-22-2009, 12:17 PM
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NCC has a point. Seven Federation star ships were destroyed at Vulcan. The 'Fleet' dedicated to a dispute in another system.

The Romulans have cloaking technology; did not suffer a loss of 47 war birds. The Klingons are hurting.

Romulus would seem to have the edge in this timeline.
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  #26  
Old 06-22-2009, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrQ1701 View Post
I would say it was merely a software or programming issue, NOT a hardware issue, so in a way the "current" technology in the movie was capable of the miraculous transport we witnessed. It's not like Spock built new sensors and a transmitter coil (if transporters have them!) in order to gain this huge leap in ability. He plugged an equation in the computer and "wha-la!"
Clearly the equation did not depend on the equipment itself, but the way in which transport itself was thought about.

But it was an equation that had not been developed and perfected in that time at that time though.

There's no indication that Scotty had finalised it at the point he was on Delta Vega.

In fact, we don't even know his theory was completed by him at all. It could have been finished by someone else after his disappearance decades later.

All we know is Spock tells him that his theory of transwarp transport was correct.
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  #27  
Old 06-22-2009, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum Alert View Post
NCC has a point. Seven Federation star ships were destroyed at Vulcan. The 'Fleet' dedicated to a dispute in another system.

The Romulans have cloaking technology; did not suffer a loss of 47 war birds. The Klingons are hurting.

Romulus would seem to have the edge in this timeline.
The Romulans in the 23rd Century are irrelevant though. We don't deal with them or know anything about their tech level.

We don't know how much of the Klingon fleet 47 ships represents and whether it would be a significant loss.

The Federation fleet is, as always, undefined in size, so again it's hard to gauge the impact of losing 7 ships in one engagement.
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  #28  
Old 06-22-2009, 03:05 PM
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I would say that depending on how much info future Spock gives the federation, they could become MUCH stronger in the short term. Remember, Spock is a highly educated scientist from a time where a mere mining vessel can take out entire fleets of warships from the current era and destroy planets. That kind of knowledge would tip the balance of power radically towards whomever he chooses to share it with.

However, future spock's ability to predict events to come will be spotty. Radical changes have happened, such as the technology and science he may introduce ahead of it's time and the loss of most of one of the most influential species in the galaxy. So, anything in the federation's sphere of influence would be pretty much unpredictable. BUT, he could predict natural events like supernovas, and he could predict events that start so far removed from the federation as to not be influenced by any of those changes. For example, he could predict the Borg invasion with a fairly high degree of accuracy.

But, in the very long term, you need to weigh in the loss of every contribution any of the billions of Vulcans killed would have made, as well of all the contributions from generation after generation of their ancestors. Eventually that will outweigh the short term contributions Spock will be able to make. Especially since Vulcans tend to rock.

Last edited by teamosil : 06-22-2009 at 03:11 PM.
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  #29  
Old 06-22-2009, 03:13 PM
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And then I am sure Spock would be good at improvisation, knowing what will work and what wont. He could simply say 'thats a dead end dont bother' and the time is better spent. He could also point to a map and say "hey, go there are you will find some dudes who will make great allies."

And yes he could say "If you see any old-old freighters out there, set phasers on full." He could also say "Oh and young-Kirk... keep the blond slave-girl."
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  #30  
Old 06-22-2009, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel View Post
And then I am sure Spock would be good at improvisation, knowing what will work and what wont. He could simply say 'thats a dead end dont bother' and the time is better spent. He could also point to a map and say "hey, go there are you will find some dudes who will make great allies."
Good points. Anyother factor that needs to be weighed in is that Spock can lie about the future. That gives him enormous personal power to reshape things. For example, he could spread the word that the only reason we were able to beat the Borg was by Romulans, Klingons, Ferengi, the Federation, etc, all banding together. Something like that might make galactic peace easier to sell. Or, if he wanted to go the other way, he could tell, for example, the Romulans that their entire economy eventually collapses because they spent far too many of their resources on the military in order to discourage their military buildup. Sort of like the way psychohistorians (ab)use the perception that they can predict the future as a way to manipulate the present in Foundation.

Last edited by teamosil : 06-22-2009 at 03:28 PM.
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