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  #1  
Old 02-24-2008, 07:46 AM
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Default DS9 isn't Trek.

*Warning, video may be too graphic for some*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX_QyQ8ez70






*Not my opinion, just what I hear from others.*

Your thoughts?
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Old 02-24-2008, 07:53 AM
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DS9 is more than the Dominion War!
In fact in Voyager and Enterprise Phasers are shot more often than in DS9!
In DS9 there are some really huge battles, but between these battles there almost isn't any violence shown onscreen. In Voyager or Enterprise there aren't any big battles, but they shoot a phaser almost every second episode. In contrast DS9 uses the time between the battles for a lot of story, character and even a lot of social critical elements. DS9 just uses an other, darker way to present them.
DS9 is different Trek, but it still is Trek ... and a better one than the following two sequels.
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Last edited by TheTrekkie : 02-24-2008 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 02-24-2008, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTrekkie View Post
DS9 is more than the Dominion War!
In fact in Voyager and Enterprise Phasers are shot more often than in DS9!
In DS9 there are some really huge battles, but between these battles there almost isn't any violence shown onscreen. In Voyager or Enterprise there aren't any big battles, but they shoot a phaser almost every second episode. In contrast DS9 uses the time between the battles for a lot of story, character and even a lot of social critical elements. DS9 just uses an other, darker way to present them.
DS9 is different Trek, but it still is Trek ... and a better one than the following two sequels.
Oh, very well said.
I guess, to those that actually have never watched the whole show,
I can see why they would say it 'isn't trek'.
Because they're not on a 'starship' seeking out new life and new
civilizations, even though the beginning of that trailer I posted showed
them in a whole new quadrant of the galaxy...

Because it's not "Gene's Vision" to see war? Is that why? We really are
supposed to be perfect in the 24th century, according to his vision? I'm
wondering if he meant that Earth itself, would no longer have wars on
it, such as the World Wars and all that.
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Old 02-24-2008, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
We really are
supposed to be perfect in the 24th century, according to his vision?
In my opinion his vision was that mankind can evolve beyond its biological instincts, beyond hate and war with humanistic ideals, the enlightment and the mind as central organs of our actions.

But to show that you have different possibilities: you can either show the evolved mankind, how it could be. (TNG)
Or you can show nowadays mankind and what has to be changed to be able to evolve. (DS9)

War and struggles even took part in TOS between the Klingons and the Federation, when Gene still worked on Star Trek.
However it is a huge dramaturgical difference if you show war just for the reason to show violence or if you show war because it brings the story forward and delivers a specific message - like the moral dilemma "does the end justify the means" of "In the Pale Moonlight", the moral question of "Hippocratic Oath", Quarks question in "The Marquis" if it's logical to acquire peace with violence, the analogies e.g. to the terror in palestine, wich all hide behind the facade of war. It's a difference if you just show war or if war is here and there a medium for something more profound.
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Old 02-24-2008, 01:48 PM
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The Dominion War is just a tool for the Prophets to achieve their ends.
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Old 02-24-2008, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTrekkie View Post
In my opinion his vision was that mankind can evolve beyond its biological instincts, beyond hate and war with humanistic ideals, the enlightment and the mind as central organs of our actions.

But to show that you have different possibilities: you can either show the evolved mankind, how it could be. (TNG)
Or you can show nowadays mankind and what has to be changed to be able to evolve. (DS9)

War and struggles even took part in TOS between the Klingons and the Federation, when Gene still worked on Star Trek.
However it is a huge dramaturgical difference if you show war just for the reason to show violence or if you show war because it brings the story forward and delivers a specific message - like the moral dilemma "does the end justify the means" of "In the Pale Moonlight", the moral question of "Hippocratic Oath", Quarks question in "The Marquis" if it's logical to acquire peace with violence, the analogies e.g. to the terror in palestine, wich all hide behind the facade of war. It's a difference if you just show war or if war is here and there a medium for something more profound.
See, this is why I created this thread. I knew someone out there would
say what I couldn't say or put into words like what you just did. What a
great group of fans we have here.
I really just want to see everyone's thoughts, too, because all Trek fans
have such great insight and each of us has a different perspective of each
show.
Creating this thread would bring a lot of that out. I am in no way a person
that debates, I like to just read everyone's replies, maybe add my own, in
a discussion...
Thank you, TheTrekkie, for your input.
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Old 02-24-2008, 02:00 PM
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Isn't Utopia worth fighting to save?
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Old 02-24-2008, 04:14 PM
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I liked the Dominion War quite a bit and like some others have said, it wasn't just flashy space battle after flashy space battle. It was well pace and very well written. There was so much going on with the characters throughout the war you didn't need to show phasers and torpedos firing every five minutes which alot of shows do. The relationships between all the characters were so rich, I cared about them all right down to the guy at the bar who'd never talk.

Interestingly enough, I still think the origins of the war were very much still in the main theme of Star Trek. They find this wormhole, it gives the alpha quadrant access to a whole new, uncharted part of the galaxy, probably hundreds of new civilizations, thousands of new worlds to explore and that's how they start. The Federation moves in as explorers. They don't go in planting flags. The effect of their presence is the sad thing, it results in a war, a war of ideology which is the most dangerous kind. The Founders are not interested in only expanding their borders or spreading the influence of the Dominion, they're motivated by their perception of 'solids'. I think that scene between Weyoun and Dukat says alot when Dukat decides they should take Earth and Weyoun says to exterminate the population and Dukat tells him, you need to make your enemies see they were wrong to oppose you, or words to that effect.

I think it showed Weyoun and Dukat were never on the same page, The Founders waged a war based on ideology and those that followed them worshipped them as gods. That was what I really found interesting about the Dominion War. I mean, here we have our explorers, exploring strange new worlds and seeking out new life and boy did they find it and just like the Borg they found something hostile, something dangerous. I think in that TNG episode where they first meet the Borg, Q says it nicely, "If you're afraid of a little bloody nose, then you shouldn't be out here." I think that really applies well to the Dominion. Starfleet meets them, they tried to reason with them and they won't hear of it so it's war.

I always liked that moment when the Cardassians take over the station and the Defiant leaves to rejoin the fleet and they show the Defiant join that massive Federation fleet and then Nog says something like, "I think we should make the Dominion sorry they ever set foot in the Alpha Quadrant." And I expected Sisko to correct him or give him some wise words from a more seasoned officer so to speak and he just says, "Cadet, you took the words right out of my mouth." You know it's war then! I thought it worked, I really liked it. And like Oregon, said, Utopia is worth fighting for. It is war, it is horrible but to fight a war in defense of one's home, one's civilization, that is just and necessary. It's a different kinds of Trek show, but I like it!
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Old 02-24-2008, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Livingston View Post
I liked the Dominion War quite a bit and like some others have said, it wasn't just flashy space battle after flashy space battle. It was well pace and very well written. There was so much going on with the characters throughout the war you didn't need to show phasers and torpedos firing every five minutes which alot of shows do. The relationships between all the characters were so rich, I cared about them all right down to the guy at the bar who'd never talk.

Interestingly enough, I still think the origins of the war were very much still in the main theme of Star Trek. They find this wormhole, it gives the alpha quadrant access to a whole new, uncharted part of the galaxy, probably hundreds of new civilizations, thousands of new worlds to explore and that's how they start. The Federation moves in as explorers. They don't go in planting flags. The effect of their presence is the sad thing, it results in a war, a war of ideology which is the most dangerous kind. The Founders are not interested in only expanding their borders or spreading the influence of the Dominion, they're motivated by their perception of 'solids'. I think that scene between Weyoun and Dukat says alot when Dukat decides they should take Earth and Weyoun says to exterminate the population and Dukat tells him, you need to make your enemies see they were wrong to oppose you, or words to that effect.

I think it showed Weyoun and Dukat were never on the same page, The Founders waged a war based on ideology and those that followed them worshipped them as gods. That was what I really found interesting about the Dominion War. I mean, here we have our explorers, exploring strange new worlds and seeking out new life and boy did they find it and just like the Borg they found something hostile, something dangerous. I think in that TNG episode where they first meet the Borg, Q says it nicely, "If you're afraid of a little bloody nose, then you shouldn't be out here." I think that really applies well to the Dominion. Starfleet meets them, they tried to reason with them and they won't hear of it so it's war.

I always liked that moment when the Cardassians take over the station and the Defiant leaves to rejoin the fleet and they show the Defiant join that massive Federation fleet and then Nog says something like, "I think we should make the Dominion sorry they ever set foot in the Alpha Quadrant." And I expected Sisko to correct him or give him some wise words from a more seasoned officer so to speak and he just says, "Cadet, you took the words right out of my mouth." You know it's war then! I thought it worked, I really liked it. And like Oregon, said, Utopia is worth fighting for. It is war, it is horrible but to fight a war in defense of one's home, one's civilization, that is just and necessary. It's a different kinds of Trek show, but I like it!
A good post, but all this is extraneous in that without the Prophet's wormhole, none of this would have come to pass. Everything in DS9 comes down to the cave and the three people there at the end.
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Old 02-24-2008, 04:33 PM
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All I can add is that for the folks that don't like DS9, they're not looking at it with an honest eye to the story arcs, character developments and morality issues presented. Darker, grittier and dirtier than TNG's cruise ship to the stars? Sure it is. For all that we've 'evolved' and are 'looking to better ourselves' in the 24th century, there are others out there with fiercely conflicting views. How we respond while endeavoring to maintain our morals/values is represented well in the show.
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