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  #21  
Old 06-03-2009, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CaptainApril View Post
One of the mantras during the production of the original series was, "There is an intelligent life form on the other side of that television tube!" The entire show was an attempt to reach out and entertain that audience segment that was tired of the standard issue pablum that had been doled out for years by the standard network show.

That's why I think Roddenberry would not have approved of this brain dead, shoot-'em-up, explodapalooza flick that makes a big joke of the show he spent five years of his life bringing to fruition and the rest of his life trying to maintain.

He would have definitely appreciated the royalty check he would've gotten, and loved how sales of TOS DVD sets have shot up 400% since this movie has come out, but he would've made no bones about how any resemblance between this movie and what he worked on is purely coincidental.
Poppycock.
Thats your opinion, nothing more.
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  #22  
Old 06-03-2009, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
The simple truth....


What Star Trek as a whole is:
-Action
-Romance
-Intrigue
-Exploration
-An optimistic view of the future
-ENTERTAINMENT for ALL who will choose to enjoy it.

What Star Trek as a whole is NOT:
-Religion
-Exclusive to any sect of fanboys/girls
-A collection of sacred texts
-Anything to be taken so seriously that one must defend it
tooth and nail with pretentious pseudo-intellectualism, ill-fitting arrogance, and puerile equivocation.


After all, it is ONLY entertainment.

Spoken as a fan of Star Trek for 35 years.

Respectfully,
Martok2112
Well said. If I may add three things: Trek is also shooting in the a**, English actors playing French characters quoting English literature, Kirk-Fu aka fighting without knowing what you do and above all a big feast for the nitpickers, aka the folks who chose to not enjoy Trek.
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  #23  
Old 06-03-2009, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Well said. If I may add three things: Trek is also shooting in the a**, English actors playing French characters quoting English literature, Kirk-Fu aka fighting without knowing what you do and above all a big feast for the nitpickers, aka the folks who chose to not enjoy Trek.
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  #24  
Old 06-03-2009, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by celticarchie View Post
Huh?!? Did I miss something? Weren't we all getting along a moment ago?

Did someone upset you Martok? Do you need a TrekkieHug?

Otherwise this thread just looks designed to stir things up, and I ain't biting, other than to just point that out.
He's probably been over on startrek.com. And...


Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainApril View Post
One of the mantras during the production of the original series was, "There is an intelligent life form on the other side of that television tube!" The entire show was an attempt to reach out and entertain that audience segment that was tired of the standard issue pablum that had been doled out for years by the standard network show.

That's why I think Roddenberry would not have approved of this brain dead, shoot-'em-up, explodapalooza flick that makes a big joke of the show he spent five years of his life bringing to fruition and the rest of his life trying to maintain.
...this is an attitude I see over there like 85% of the time. (I don't generally bother to post.) It's so strange to me. The new movie is mature in the same way as every other Trek: the character relationships are well tuned and it expects the audience to follow the plot without handholding. It's certainly no more pulpy than TOS, a show coming straight out of the original pulp space opera stories and a show with tons of humor and action just to entertain.

People seem to confuse TOS with the pseudo-intellectualism of TNG and DS9. Now, I love these series. I'd missed most of DS9 before and I'm giving it a good watch this month, and I've seen plenty of TNG. Like any other space opera the shows pay attention to character development and a sweeping romantic feeling of adventure. But to suggest there's something deeply more intelligent about nonsensical technobabble and heavy handed moralizing is a bit funny when those aspects mostly lend flavor to the series.

Watching DS9 through, it's great to watch the "science" next to my friend Chas, who went to college for and stays up to date on these things. At least twice an episode I'll say "Chas, is that…science?" and he'll say "Sure. Sure." or, if it's particularly egregious, "No," and proceed to explain something that might look more like physics or biology or any number of fields he reads journals and articles from. As for the moralizing, there was a stunning example in one of the first season episodes we watched which claimed that humanoids were unique because they had imagination. Now, this is hardly true. Imagination is the ability to entertain a concept separate from what's immediately occurring. On Earth, we see a wide variety of species capable of imagination in some form. The easiest test is object permanence. If you take it away, and they know it's still there, they are imagining it to some degree.

The aliens making this spurious claim show they have imagination within the episode by holding a roundtable discussion where they speculate about their experience on the ship. Maybe they're a habitually boring alien species, like Vulcans, but to suggest they don't experience a pretty essential mental function present in most life forms is astoundingly nonsensical, yet asserted again and again. And that stuff goes down all the time in Trek.

Am I criticizing the show for these aspects? Not really, no. It's part of the flavor of a space opera. It's fun, and it's funny, but it certainly doesn't make previous Trek intellectually superior to Star Trek XI.

Last edited by calliefox : 06-03-2009 at 05:38 AM.
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  #25  
Old 06-03-2009, 09:36 AM
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Religon has no place in Trek. It's called Star Trek, not Deity Trek.

Persoanlly I could care less what any charater's religon is. What does that have to do with their place in any story?

If religon was prominate in Trek, which religon gets represented? There is no way everyone's (human and alien) religous convictions could possibly get equal time.
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  #26  
Old 06-03-2009, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by celticarchie View Post
Huh?!? Did I miss something? Weren't we all getting along a moment ago?

Did someone upset you Martok? Do you need a TrekkieHug?

Otherwise this thread just looks designed to stir things up, and I ain't biting, other than to just point that out.
Sorry, but I am no troll. I am a long time member here (although my post count is nowhere near commensurate to my time here), and I do not go baiting for discord. For you to accuse me of that is trollish in and of itself, and you are trying to bring down civil conversation.

And actually, calliefox is correct....I have been over to startrek.com, and it still gets pretty vicious over there.

I made this SAME POST over there, and it has inspired good debate, although ONE poster decided to cop an attitude with me (as you are now) by saying he didn't care what I thought of Trek. When I replied it made two of us, he tried to be clever by rendering a smart *** remark. Things got hostile for a moment, then when I proved to be the bigger man, even taking his calling me an idiot (ONCE) for that round, he has never returned, for whatever his reasons.

Inspiring good debate is NOT a bad thing. Inspiring discord is....and that is certainly not what my intentions were. So, kindly do not presume to think you know me so well. And do not EVER presume to talk down to me. Your arrogance is ill-chosen, and ill-fitting.
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  #27  
Old 06-03-2009, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Zardoz View Post
Religon has no place in Trek. It's called Star Trek, not Deity Trek.

Persoanlly I could care less what any charater's religon is. What does that have to do with their place in any story?

If religon was prominate in Trek, which religon gets represented? There is no way everyone's (human and alien) religous convictions could possibly get equal time.
Indeed....but I was not speaking of religion in Trek.

I was speaking of people who treat Trek like some kind of religion, hanging on chapter and verse as if it were holy scripture.

It's one thing to have passion for what you love....it's quite another to get into holy war over it.

However, on the subject of religion within Trek, well, it's as I've said: Trek might come across as wanting to be (or promote) atheism, but it does not discourage faith. All you need do is look no further than Balance of Terror, during the wedding scene. Not only is the female crewman praying, but look behind Kirk at the piece on the wall....it symbolizes (apparently) different religions. One seems representative of Christianity, and another seems indicative of a possible alien religion. There could also be symbols on there for Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, etc...

Respectfully,
Martok2112
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  #28  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
Indeed....but I was not speaking of religion in Trek.

I was speaking of people who treat Trek like some kind of religion, hanging on chapter and verse as if it were holy scripture.

It's one thing to have passion for what you love....it's quite another to get into holy war over it.

However, on the subject of religion within Trek, well, it's as I've said: Trek might come across as wanting to be (or promote) atheism, but it does not discourage faith. All you need do is look no further than Balance of Terror, during the wedding scene. Not only is the female crewman praying, but look behind Kirk at the piece on the wall....it symbolizes (apparently) different religions. One seems representative of Christianity, and another seems indicative of a possible alien religion. There could also be symbols on there for Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, etc...

Respectfully,
Martok2112
Well BoT was made in the 60's when a scene like that would have been in Trek, or any series of that era.

Well any popular story in history has taken on Mythic/Pesudo Religous devotion by it's fans dating back to Homer's Oddessy, and as recently as Sherock Holmes, Various Comic Books, Movies, Novel, ect. ect.
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  #29  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Zardoz View Post
Well BoT was made in the 60's when a scene like that would have been in Trek, or any series of that era.
That, I do understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zardoz
Well any popular story in history has taken on Mythic/Pesudo Religous devotion by it's fans dating back to Homer's Oddessy, and as recently as Sherock Holmes, Various Comic Books, Movies, Novel, ect. ect.
Indeed.
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  #30  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:05 AM
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Frankly, if Trek's motto is diversity, why should a character not explicitly believe in something? It worked perfectly fine with Kira who could have been a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim as well. DS9 only chose a fictional religion to be able to portray characters like Winn who use religion as a stairway to power which might have caused some protests if a real religion were portrayed. As the structures of Bajoran religion are fairly familiar with Catholicism, Winn might have been the e.g. Pope (no disrespect implied, I grew up in Catholic family myself, just wannna point out that a Pope Winn would have been a no-go for the producers).
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