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  #21  
Old 06-02-2009, 07:11 PM
AyanEva AyanEva is offline
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I probably wouldn't have bothered going to watch it, so they wouldn't have had over 100 of my dollars for their box office total.
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  #22  
Old 06-02-2009, 07:44 PM
hixonium hixonium is offline
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Woulda sucked. Rick Berman had his time. He had the franchise from 1987 to 2005. Star Trek needed a whole new production and story writing crew.
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  #23  
Old 06-02-2009, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flw View Post
Interesting ... think about this:

Old and busted Star Trek: Bald Romulan goes power-mad and wants revenge by using his super-weapon battleship to destroy Earth; the only thing in his way is the crew of the Enterprise! (Nemesis)

New, hot Star Trek: Bald Romulan goes power-mad and wants revenge by using his super-weapon battleship to destroy Earth; the only thing in his way is the crew of the Enterprise! (09)

Hmmm ... who's copying whom? Just who, might I ask, was out of ideas? Or does the new movie prove that Nemesis was actually really good?
Nemesis was just one source of inspiration for the new Trek movie there were others. But i'll agree with you that the basic plot is re-hash Nemesis. So the real question is, why does Star Trek (2009) become the top grossing film of 2009 and in the whole of the Trek franchise, and Nemesis goes down in history as one of the worst Trek films and bombs at the box-office?

I'm going to venture a guess, that it's all about execution and advertising. Even though i disliked the movie overall, i have to admit, its one of the best directed Trek films ever made. The production, action, cinematography, visual effects, and fast-paced story-telling are heads and shoulders above anything we've seen before in Trek. In addition, the marketing campaign made it impossible to know the film wasn't out. Reminds me of the old adage, it isn't what you sell, but how you sell that determines if you make the sale.
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  #24  
Old 06-02-2009, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Star Trek Viewer View Post
At the risk of inviting negative comments -- and I'm not inviting them particularly -- what do you think the old crew of Berman, et al., would have done if they, and not JJ Abrams, had produced this movie?

I think it would have been slower and more methodical. I think that they would not have had the scene with young Kirk stealing his step-dad's vehicle, but would probably have had him engage in some words with him. I don't think that they would have done the bar scene at all, since it's way too informal (even though they did a bar scene in ST: First Contact).

I think that movie would not have been so action-packed. I don't think that Spock would have had a love interest. I don't think that they would have killed off Spock's mother.

Thoughts?
In short, it would've looked like nothing more than an overblown two hour episode like Generations, First Contact and Insurrection.
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  #25  
Old 06-02-2009, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Star Trek Viewer View Post
At the risk of inviting negative comments -- and I'm not inviting them particularly -- what do you think the old crew of Berman, et al., would have done if they, and not JJ Abrams, had produced this movie?

I think it would have been slower and more methodical. I think that they would not have had the scene with young Kirk stealing his step-dad's vehicle, but would probably have had him engage in some words with him. I don't think that they would have done the bar scene at all, since it's way too informal (even though they did a bar scene in ST: First Contact).

I think that movie would not have been so action-packed. I don't think that Spock would have had a love interest. I don't think that they would have killed off Spock's mother.

Thoughts?
Agreed - playing safe would be the key phrase about anything they did. It would probably be more respecting of canon and would take place in the same universe, and that would probably already improve it in some people's eyes.

But it would have been non-epic, non-cinematic, and safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
It would have been the Rick Berman-proposed Star Trek: The Beginning, a movie about the Earth-Romulus War with Shran from ENT making a brief appearance. Captain Tiberius Chase would have been the main character.

They wouldn't have gone the route Star Trek XI went.
See, IMO I have no interest in that story really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thanis View Post
That is easy to answer. The timeline would have been restored.
Absolutely - even if they did have the guts to destroy Vulcan you can bet it would have been restored for a safe 'it's ok, guys, we didn't really do it' ending.

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Originally Posted by sir num nums View Post
It would have had a fraction of the production budget, and very small sets which would have been redressed from an old show or movie.
Also true.

Ultimately I think a few components of the story could have been very similar, I just have the feeling it would have been a duller movie that would have been adequate but in the end, safe.

I know I keep using that word - safe, but I think it's the case. Berman wouldn't have taken a leap and done anything so huge as destroy Vulcan and keep it that way.
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  #26  
Old 06-03-2009, 01:18 AM
samwiseb samwiseb is offline
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Agreed with just about everything on here, especially Kevin's comment about it being non-epic, non-cinematic and safe.

Probably also the far-fetched science in this movie would've been 'explained' through meaningless technobabble to keep it consistent with the TNG-verse. And with Jerry Goldsmith passed away, Berman and company would've gone back to letting Dennis McCarthy/ Jay Chatta-what's-his-name score the music (*shudder*... tell me I'm wrong).

They also would've 'missed' the moments. Kirk's Kobayashi Maru apple, McCoy's classy introduction... let's face it, the TNG staff wouldn't know the characters well enough. Even if you removed the technobabble from Scotty's mouth at the beginning of Star Trek Generations, and temp-tracked the scene with James Horner music instead Dennis McCarthy, I'd be willing to bet fans would still 'sense' they were watching a Rick Berman production.

But it's even more than those character moments. The sublest, least noticeable things the new Star Trek did to illustrate that it understood the 'language' of film, would've gone completely over their (Berman and company's) heads.

This isn't something I know how to explain (and to think that I call myself an aspiring screenwriter), but I can give examples:

Kirk scraping his fingers (both as a ten-year-old-boy, and then later on the away mission) to keep from falling over the ledge. No coincidence that J.J. practically uses the same shot in both scenes. Or how about Kirk and McCoy, as they arrive on the Enterprise, almost-passing Spock on his way to the bridge (whereas a more TV-minded writer would simply CUT to the bridge and... "ENTER Spock").

My point is that movies (the ones that leave a lasting impression anyway), go out of their way to look for those cinematic details that audiences barely even register. But not Star Trek, or at least not until now. It's just not the way TV writers/directors are trained to think. Went right over their heads. Missed it completely.

[EDIT: There have been exceptions. Khan's glove -the one he never takes off- and the Whale Probe's communication with George and Gracie, I would argue both demonstrate a degree of that higher cinematic awareness that eluded the TNG-verse people]

Then again, we might've been spared the puffy hands, Willy Wonka's engine room, or Kirk accidently groping Uhura's boobs. (Just being fair. Which Feringi Rule of Acquisition states "every once in a while, declare peace"?)
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  #27  
Old 06-03-2009, 05:30 AM
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In fact, the previous idea for an eleventh movie under the rule of Berman was far more risky than going back to the roots and rebooting the franchise.
And to all you B&B bashers, many other interesting but risky ideas in Trek have been blocked by the studio, not by the guy at the helm.
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  #28  
Old 06-03-2009, 06:02 AM
calliefox calliefox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chator View Post
Nemesis was just one source of inspiration for the new Trek movie there were others. But i'll agree with you that the basic plot is re-hash Nemesis. So the real question is, why does Star Trek (2009) become the top grossing film of 2009 and in the whole of the Trek franchise, and Nemesis goes down in history as one of the worst Trek films and bombs at the box-office?
I just watched that one last week, so I at least have fresh memories. Nemesis had terrible, inconsistent pacing, going from manic action scenes to long periods of people talking with nothing really being achieved by their dialog.

The thing that stuck with me is it's probably the worst offender in terms of showing a Starfleet that has no concept of professionalism or military protocol, and I've been making cracks about Troi being left the Conn. Afaik she doesn't HAVE the Conn because no senior officer passed it to her, for that matter, the three or so people assuming control of the Conn before her didn't have it, either, but at least most of them were even vaguely qualified to direct the bridge. That's some criminal negligence in the middle of a military engagement. (The best bit was Riker's "lulz be needinz some fisticuffs!" departure. You're first officer, you galoot!) And I feel the complete lack of any military protocol throughout the movie is just a terrible sign of the lazy script writing that contributes to the meandering dialog elsewhere.

The movie doesn't really have things like "themes" or "thrust." If you already like the characters, there's some really fun moments throughout the movie, but there's certainly nothing to engage a general audience and I wouldn't exactly call it great cinema. Maybe 'a pretty decent TV movie.'

Quote:
I'm going to venture a guess, that it's all about execution and advertising. Even though i disliked the movie overall, i have to admit, its one of the best directed Trek films ever made. The production, action, cinematography, visual effects, and fast-paced story-telling are heads and shoulders above anything we've seen before in Trek. In addition, the marketing campaign made it impossible to know the film wasn't out. Reminds me of the old adage, it isn't what you sell, but how you sell that determines if you make the sale.
What they sold here was a movie with witty dialog, great character moments and development, a plot that at least topically makes sense to the audience, and an actual pace -- boldly going, on that note, where Trek hasn't gone before.

Around our house, we have a saying for something that takes a long time, it's "still docking, like the Starship Enterprise." A reference so ST:TMP where, omg, you can go get a soda and make some lunch and that thing will still be docking. Existentially, one can argue it's docking even now.



I've made two pretty critical posts today, and I love Trek, and I enjoy Trek. It's happy and optimistic and I love the characters and their relationships and evolution. But ultimately it's a continuation of the pulp tradition of space opera from the 30's and 40's. This is a tradition I love with every fiber of my being. But I do tend to frown on people not recognizing that this is NOT hard sci-fi. It's not as soft as sci-fi gets, but it's inarguably soft sci-fi in every way.

Star Trek XI does something awesome, in that it's one of those space opera endeavors that manages to hit the mainstream without selling out in terms of characters and high adventure, only losing a lot of what makes the genre a little hokey and inaccessible to people that don't just love the vibe. (And the vibe's great to love, I'll watch, say, Leji Matsumoto projects glued to the screen for long shots of a train traveling through space and for long speeches about the "sea of stars" and I'm like "Brilliant!" but it's certainly a not a genre for everyone.)

ETA: Some of this pertains to my other posts around the forums. But srrrrrsly u guyz. @_@

Last edited by calliefox : 06-03-2009 at 06:10 AM.
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  #29  
Old 06-03-2009, 06:02 AM
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ShotoJuku ShotoJuku is offline
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How Would the New Movie Have Been Different if Made by the TNG Producers?

It would have SUCKED!!
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  #30  
Old 06-03-2009, 06:54 AM
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NCC_1701A NCC_1701A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flw View Post
Interesting ... think about this:

Old and busted Star Trek: Bald Romulan goes power-mad and wants revenge by using his super-weapon battleship to destroy Earth; the only thing in his way is the crew of the Enterprise! (Nemesis)

New, hot Star Trek: Bald Romulan goes power-mad and wants revenge by using his super-weapon battleship to destroy Earth; the only thing in his way is the crew of the Enterprise! (09)

Hmmm ... who's copying whom? Just who, might I ask, was out of ideas? Or does the new movie prove that Nemesis was actually really good?
Will people never remember that Shinzon is not a Romulan? He hates Romulans for that matter. From everything I see in the movie it seems like he should have wanted to destroy Romulus, not Earth. But I guess they needed to have the Enterprise trying to save earth again, because otherwise Picard and co. would be back in Federation space watching Shinzon and the Romulans destroying each other.
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