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  #61  
Old 06-03-2009, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
I like the strong black woman vulcan relationship....
Boo on you...
Yeah, but nothing comes from it. So here is the solution: Make Number One an arabic looking woman or an indian woman. Make her name a really long and almost impossible to pronounce name. Then, let her add that people call her Number One. There you have your multiethnicity and at the same time a good explanation for the strange name.
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  #62  
Old 06-03-2009, 09:46 AM
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Officially I have returned to DEF CON 5
Defense Condition: Green.
Well, I like you this way.
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  #63  
Old 06-03-2009, 09:49 AM
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Well, I have thought about the movies problems quite a lot lately (everyone needs a hobby to waste his time). Here is what I think:

1. Skip Nero! The movie needs to spend a lot of time on the main characters. That leaves little time for portraying the villain. That will make you end up with a generic villain or leave major plotholes and inconsistencies, wich you dont find screentime to explain. Thus you need a simple villain, something beastlike with a naive understanding of the world. Take the planetkiller from TOS and explain his background story as follows:

The Plantekiller got found by the Borg. They revived it, enhanced it and when the collective collapsed they lost controll. Spock planned to stop it with the red matter. He was on route when the Planetkiller made telepathic contact with him, a forced mind meld.

It was alone, since aeons. It never wanted to be alone again. Spocks mind was about to get swallowed, consumed and assimilated. He struggled to cap the connection. He was running out of time. He induced the red matter but had miscalculated. Instead of destroying the Narada (as it now called itself) there was created a protal through space and time and swallowed both, the Narada and Spock.

Since then the Narada searches for Spock. It does not understand the complexities of timetravel. It treats both Spocks as one and the same person. And it wants Spock! But it knows Spock will never let himself get assimilated by it. Therefore its plan is, to deprive Spock of all he holds dear. The Narada hopes, that as soon as he is as lonely and empty as it was for aeons, as soon as he has lost everything and has no place to go, then he would give in. And the Narada would never be alone again.

In other words: Make the Narada a giant tragic naive angry childlike Space Stalker. By this you also set your focus on the topic of loss, lonelyness and love. That goes hand in hand with the story of Spock (lost his mother) and Kirk (lost his father). It completes the subtext of loss instead of distracting from it with a contrived and illogical revenge plot.

2. Have Jim Kirk be ten years old when his father dies! Have him be aboard the Kelvin (with his mother) and see his father a last time (in heroic pose) before the attack of the Narada! Seeing Kirks birth doesnt add anything to his character. But seeing him loose his father makes him suffer a real loss.

3. Give Pikes part to Number One instead! First because the movie lacks women. Second because you could make Number One and Spock have a love relation ship, instead of Uhura. Number One is taken hostage (drama, conflict).

4. Have Kirk be a Lieutenant at Starfleet Academy, doing his Bridge Commander Training! When Savik took the Kobayashi Maru Test, she was a Lieutenant too. By this the insane Cadett to Captain problem is solved.

5. Make Spock indirectly responsible for the destruction of Vulcan! The landing party has set the charges to blow the drilling rig up. But Spock hesitates, because he fears the Narada could kill Number One as soon as the drilling rig gets destroyed. The hesitation leads to the completion of the drill and causes Vulcans destruction.

6. Make Spock give Kirk an assignment on Delta Vega instead of marooning him there and make the planet be located in the Vulcan system! By this you solve several issues at once: The contrived Kirk attacking Security Officers for no apparent reason is not needed anymore. Kirk could get angry at Spock in front of the lifepod, Cupcake gives him a push, closes the door and woosh - "Have a nice trip!". Also, the whole transwarp beaming is now not necessary anymore (the Enterprise is still in the system, waiting for help and searching for survivors).

7. Have McCoy have a talk with Spock in the turbolift, instead of Uhura hugging him! That gives the both something real to talk about, instead of Bones rambling about Prize Stallions. McCoy could note that the whole situation is way over Spock head, that he is now the Captain but has no plan, that sort of thing.

8. Have Prime Spock state he landed on Delta Vega intentionally because he needs to see Mr. Scott to get his help perfectioning the red matter device to destroy the Narada once and for all. Have him have the red matter with him (the game changer).

9. Have Kirk return with the red matter! Make him reveal that the true reason Spock hesitates to use it on the Narada is his love for Number One and his fear she could die in the fight (adds a real conflict). Then have Kirk make Spock go all angry and thereby take Command.

10. Have the crew develop a real plan! Get to the Narada, beam aboard, install the red matter, free Number One. And have Kirk, Spock and McCoy go over there together (the hostage could possibly need a doctor). Now you have the classic triumphirate in action.

Yep, thats about it. Do you now understand why I think the script needed a lot of polish and a lot of all the contrivances could have been solved easily?
Working on getting a new job as script-writer in your free-time, BB?

Seriously, many good points, especially about how to bring the troika better together and a non-humanoid, non-one-dimensional (evil Romulan with those evil tattoos and this evil staff) villain. The only thing I don't like is Number One, her character traits were integrated into Spock after "The Cage", so it would be kinda like having two super-rational main characters. And, this is entirely subjective, I just love Greenwood's Pike too much.

By the way, this is no nitpicking like phaser or swords but substantial and constructive criticism.
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  #64  
Old 06-03-2009, 09:54 AM
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Yeah, but nothing comes from it. So here is the solution: Make Number One an arabic looking woman or an indian woman. Make her name a really long and almost impossible to pronounce name. Then, let her add that people call her Number One. There you have your multiethnicity and at the same time a good explanation for the strange name.
You're right...but they cut down on the number of characters this way.

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Well, I like you this way.
Don't get to used it
I prefer my vulcan side.
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  #65  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:01 AM
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Don't get to used it
I prefer my vulcan side.
Remeber Spock realized that Logic and Emotions went hand in hand. One compliments the other.
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  #66  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:04 AM
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The only thing I don't like is Number One, her character traits were integrated into Spock after "The Cage", so it would be kinda like having two super-rational main characters. And, this is entirely subjective, I just love Greenwood's Pike too much.
Yupp, Greenwood was great. However, if they would have made it Number One, then we would never have seen him play Pike, so we would not miss it. And instead we could have gotten another great female actor that we now say we enjoyed a lot. Let say Helena Bonham Carter? She could have pulled Number One easilly

To the point of both being logical characters: Yupp, thats what I like about it. There could be this very cool mood in the air. Imagine Number One being quite a tough lad, shouting her orders at the crew on her way to the turbolift (Spock and Kirk following her) just before she takes the shuttle. She makes Kirk the First Officer, Spock complains and wham, there is this intense Kiss, both have fire in their eyes, when she say Spock to take care of the ship, because she is brand new. In the lift Kirk could then go: You and Spock are...? Here Number One can do Spocks "I have no comment on this" line (from the Uhura-Spock scene in the transporte room, that is now obsolete).

You know, it would be a quite unusual relationship for a quite unusual man like Spock.

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
You're right...but they cut down on the number of characters this way.
Yes. But Uhura still had the bedroom scene, the bar scene, the bridge scene. Heck, she had almost more screen time then Scotty. And all that I would have taken away would have been the two short love relation moments with Spock and shifted it over to Number One (delivering Pikes part in the plot). No big loss for Saldana.

Last edited by Botany Bay : 06-03-2009 at 10:12 AM.
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  #67  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:06 AM
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Remeber Spock realized that Logic and Emotions went hand in hand. One compliments the other.
with emotion also comes bias though...
An unfortunant by product.
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  #68  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:08 AM
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with emotion also comes bias though...
An unfortunant by product.
But every being has biases. It's learning and trying to see past them that makes one a better person.
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  #69  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:11 AM
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what can I do but agree.
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  #70  
Old 06-03-2009, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
Yupp, Greenwood was great. However, if they would have made it Number One, then we would never have seen him play Pike, so we would not miss it. And instead we could have gotten another great female actor that we now say we enjoyed a lot. Let say Helena Bonham Carter? She could have pulled Number One easilly

To the point of bothing being logical characters: Yupp, thats what I like about it. There could be this very cool mood in the air. Imagine Number One being quite a tough lad, shouting her orders at the crew on her way to the turbolift (Spock and Kirk following her) just before she takes the shuttle. She makes Kirk the First Officer, Spock complains and wham, there is this intense Kiss, both have fire in their eyes, when she say Spock to take care of the ship, because she is brand new. In the lift Kirk could then go: You and Spock are...? Here Number One can do Spocks "I have no comment on this" line (from the Uhura-Spock scene in the transporte room, that is now obsolete).

You know, it would be a quite unusual relationship for a quite unusual man like Spock. .
What do you do with Number One after the movie? I guess that's why they chose Pike and Uhura.
And how does a romance between two fairly equal persons work well? I guess that's why they chose Uhura.

We already have a strong female character in the movie, one which can reappear in later movies, one which, as you have pointed out, took Scotty's position as #4 (not in terms of chain of command but character relevance): Uhura.
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