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  #31  
Old 06-02-2009, 01:44 PM
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kevin kevin is offline
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I see Kirk had no plan for dealing with the Narada (that wasn't really in dispute) - point is neither did Spock.

It comes down to a very old question in extreme situations - do you fight, or run away?

To fight was in Kirk's nature - again, what the Kobayashi Maru is about and what drives early Kirk/Spock animosity. Not having a plan wasn't going to stop him trying. Not having a plan was going to prevent Spock doing anything.
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Last edited by kevin : 06-02-2009 at 01:47 PM.
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  #32  
Old 06-02-2009, 01:44 PM
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horatio horatio is offline
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Rushing into the action with slim chances of success is Kirk's signature. It's risky, it's lunactic, it would rarely work in the real world, it's why I'd rather serve under Picard ... but in TOS, the six movies and this movie Kirk's way works most of the times while Spock's logical choice would have lead to the destruction of Earth. It's fiction, it's contrived per definition and it's not like previous Trek cared much about realism and nit-picking-proof plots.
That's what this movie is about, two people with different philosophies clashing with each other and becoming friends ... and exchanging their position on the ship.
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  #33  
Old 06-02-2009, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Rushing into the action with slim chances of success is Kirk's signature. It's risky, it's lunactic, it would rarely work in the real world, it's why I'd rather serve under Picard ... but in TOS, the six movies and this movie Kirk's way works most of the times while Spock's logical choice would have lead to the destruction of Earth. It's fiction, it's contrived per definition and it's not like previous Trek cared much about realism and nit-picking-proof plots.
That's what this movie is about, two people with different philosophies clashing with each other and becoming friends ... and exchanging their position on the ship.
Most of his modus operandi is going with the option that no-one else would consider!

It reflected the autonomy captains had in TOS over their counterparts later.
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  #34  
Old 06-02-2009, 02:01 PM
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horatio horatio is offline
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Good point, "there are always options" is also essential to Kirk's personality. And essential to the movie, comparing by-the-book type captains like Robau, Pike (and Spock ?!) with the Kirks.

You know, you're a great one for logic. I'm a great one for ...rushing in where angels fear to tread.

That's what Kirk did, rush in without thinking, guided by instinct. He is perfectly in character, I really fail to see the problem.
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  #35  
Old 06-02-2009, 02:02 PM
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Again - the 'no-win' scenario rears it's ugly head in Kirk's approach.
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  #36  
Old 06-02-2009, 06:56 PM
Kiko Kea Kiko Kea is offline
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
Having seen the movie a second time I cant help the feeling that the movie was really heavilly recut and not allways for the better.

However, what about this:
Pike has Kirk, Sulu and Olson skydiving onto the drilling rig because its beam jams the transporters? Why dont they just shoot the damn thing from space?

Kirk and Spock beam onto the Narada, Spock takes the Jellyfish and takes out the drill. Couldnt the Enterprise have done this?

Spock takes the jellyfish to warp, causing Nero to follow him. How did Spock and Kirk know Nero would follow Spock? Without that knowledge, what the heck was their whole plan to begin with? Beaming over to the Narada to do what? Geting the red matter and then?


After Spock had marooned Kirk on Delta Vega he talks to McCoy and asks him for his opinion about... yeah... about what? What in heavens name are these men actually talking about? The whole dialogue doesnt make any sense.
I have a few answers that might help.

Shooting the drilling rig: Perhaps Pike thought Nero would see that as another attack. Pike didn't want to risk the Enterprise being fired on again.

Spock and the Jellyfish: Their main goal was to get the red matter away from Nero so he could not implode Earth as he did Vulcan. Without the red matter and the drill not working, there was little Nero could do to Earth, except launch missles. Granted, that would surely play havoc, but not like what occurred on Vulcan.

While he could not know exactly what Nero would do, Spock was counting on the fact that Nero was crazy for revenge and would follow. Having drawn Nero away from Earth, Spock turned the Jellyfish around with every intention of taking out the Narada, even at the expense of his own life. He may or may not have known that Kirk and Pike were still on the Narada since his ship wasn't in contact with the Enterprise; it wouldn't have mattered, at any rate. Ridding the universe of Nero was more important.

Spock and McCoy's chat: Spock was thanking (sort of) McCoy for taking his (Spock's) side during Kirk's ranting fight over what to do. I don't think it is in the movie, but in the book, at one point when Kirk becomes very loud and belligerant, McCoy says "For God sake's Jim- he's the captain!" Kirk backs off- temporarily, before starting another rant and fight, etc.

The horse bit comment was odd, but I guess the homily showed McCoy's Southern roots and plain (??) way of speaking. McCoy wants Spock to show some remorse about kicking Kirk off the ship, which Spock doesn't. Hence, Spock's sarcastic remark- he'll mope about, if McCoy thinks it will help morale.
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  #37  
Old 06-02-2009, 09:00 PM
Avalon_ Avalon_ is offline
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I don't really have any issue with the additional questions people have brought up:

1. After Vulcan is destroyed, Spock, as captain, decides to join the main fleet. Even in today's navy (well, our Royal Navy in England anyway), the captains all have orders to regroup with allies should the worst happen. (In particular, in the case of a nuclear attack on Britain, our Trident nuclear subs are ordered to find the nearest American fleet depending on circumstances). This makes perfect sense, as there is clearly nothing that the Enterprise can do to stop the Romulans. HOWEVER, it is clear that this inevitably dooms Earth... which is why Kirk is so mad and wants to follow them. Yes, he has no plan, but in his mind trying to save Earth and failing is better than doing the more sensible thing and allowing Earth to be destroyed. (Note: the only way they save the Earth eventually is to use the long range beaming that hasn't been found yet)

2. Spock thanks McCoy for not intervening when he starts the scrap on the bridge. Afterwards, he probably wishes that he hadn't, as McCoy goes off at him. The "stallion" comment is a bit bizzare, but the writers probably thought it added a bit of flare to the conversation (and allowed Spock to show his distain for Kirk in his come-back-line).

One more question I have though, is this:
Earth is about to be destroyed, so Spock and Kirk transport over to the enemy ship to disrupt things from the inside, save Pike, get the jellyfish etc. They plan to beam into the cargo bay and then start a bit of gorilla warfare... so why not beam many, many more people in!? Why not try and beam 20 starfleet people in at once.. more is better! Of course, only the first wave of transports would have worked before the drill was turned one, but that would still have tripled their numbers. Imagine if Spock and Kirk were to have both been shot. Good job guys!

A
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  #38  
Old 06-03-2009, 01:03 AM
wasabi_fandango wasabi_fandango is offline
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Spock went to the weapons room to grab a phaser, communicator, tricorder, and equipment belt. He was putting it on when he stepped onto the pad.
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  #39  
Old 06-03-2009, 01:20 AM
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theGeekKing theGeekKing is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasabi_fandango View Post
Spock went to the weapons room to grab a phaser, communicator, tricorder, and equipment belt. He was putting it on when he stepped onto the pad.
great job! it really seems reading between the lines is a lost art, doesn't it?

congrats on being one of the few left who can
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  #40  
Old 06-03-2009, 03:48 AM
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Saquist Saquist is offline
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If you have to read between the lines of a plot then the story wasn't told propperly that is why it's called "Story-telling"

That's the true lost art in cinema.
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