[kevin]

It actually demonstrates the curve that Kirk and Spock had to go through - from being, essentially adversaries over what to do (after the KM scenario), to having to work together at the end to destroy Nero.

Thus beginning the friendship.

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Botany Bay

Well, in the movie I saw Kirk was physically attacking the security officers who where ordered to escort him off the bridge because he had lost his temper and was screaming and yelling he wants to chase the Narada while having no clue what to do when they would have caught up with the beast. In what I saw there was a man who behaved terribly unprofessional, didnt accept orders and physically attacked colleagues.

So despite Spock having no clue what to do either (except the non-decision of rejoining the rest of the fleet, for......what precisely?) because he didn't get het up it was ok?

But Kirk actually being stubborn and refusing to blindly follow a bad order (and if a first officer can't question then what's his point?) that was not going to get them any closer to solving the problem is not?

Spock was running away from the problem, Kirk wanted to face it.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by Botany Bay

What do you mean? What plan? What worked?

To go after the Narada and not meet with the rest of the fleet. Sure, that worked due to coincidences like meeting Old Spock and Scotty and getting the ability to beam over large distances. Uncertainties, risks, isn't that a perfect way to display Kirk's command style?

Originally Posted by kevin

It actually demonstrates the curve that Kirk and Spock had to go through - from being, essentially adversaries over what to do (after the KM scenario), to having to work together at the end to destroy Nero.

Thus beginning the friendship.

At this moment of the movie, you needed a scene about Spock and Kirk and the only way to achieve that was via dialogue. McCoy did not say anything for quite some time, so putting Spock and Bones together is the most straightfoward choice.
If the lines had not been there, people would have b*tched about too few screen time for McCoy, no dialogue between him and Spock, that the Kirk-Spock development was not prominent enough etc.

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by kevin

It actually demonstrates the curve that Kirk and Spock had to go through - from being, essentially adversaries over what to do (after the KM scenario), to having to work together at the end to destroy Nero.

Thus beginning the friendship.

Yupp, thats what the script intended to show us. Now what where they actually adversaries about? What made them disagree with eachother? When Kirk was right (as with the trap thing) then Spock was the first to work together with him. When Pike wanted to go over to the Narada then Spock agrees with Kirk again (that it would be suicide). Seems Spock has no quarrel with Kirk at all. Untill Kirk screams and yells "Lets hunt the Narada, lets hunt the Narada"...

Where did that actually come from I wonder? Answer: The plot needed Kirk to mutiny as it needed Spock to maroon him on Delta Vega, as it needed Kirk to stumble over Prime Spock, as it needed both to meet Scotty, as it needed them to coincidently find a way to beam aboard the Narada (thanks Checkov) as it needed them to coincidently find that the Red Matter was conveniently stored in the Jellyfish. What would they have done if Nero would have extracted all the red matter and stored it in several tanks?

THEY HAD NO PLAN!!!!

Thats what I am getting at.

[horatio]

Kirk did have no precise plan either when he went after the Narada, his crew contributed ideas and then they had a plan.
If they would all have known what to do earlier, the plain execution would have been boring and there would have been no 'all seven together on the crew' scene.

And Kirk not having a plan is not really new, it's not like he got e.g. out of Rura Penthe because he had a plan. It's all about being true to the character.

[Macon ACE]

Kirk had no plan. Except to TRY SOMETHING! He does not believe in the no win scenario. He had also just been through McCoy's sedating him and pumping him full of other drugs.

Seemed perfectly in character to me. Has he ALWAYS had a plan? In every episode? Every incident? Every movie? 'Course not!

And where do people get this idea that the trip to Vulcan only took minutes. That wasn't clear in the film I saw. Kirk is sedated, and when he wakes up they're almost to Vulcan. Everyone else has changed clothes. We have no idea how long it's been. Coulda been hours. Doesn't matter!

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Botany Bay

Yupp, thats what the script intended to show us. Now what where they actually adversaries about? What made them disagree witheachother. When kirk was right (as with the trap thing) then Spock was the first to work together with him. When Pike wanted to go over to the Narada Spock agrees with Kirk again. Seems he has no quarrel with Kirk at all. Untill Kirk screams and yells "Lets hunt the Narada, lets hunt the Narada"...

Where did that actually come from I wonder. Answer: The plot needed Kirk to mutiny as it needed Spock to maroon him on Delta Vega, as it needed Kirk to stumble over Prime Spock, as it needed both to meet Scotty, as it needed them to coincidently find a way to beam aboard the Narada (thanks Checkov) as it needed them to coincidently find that the Red Matter was conveniently stored in the Jellyfish. What would they have done if Nero would have extracted all the red matter and stored it in several tanks?

THEY HAD NO PLAN!!!!

Thats what I am getting at.

Spock was completely dismissive of Kirk because Spock basically did not rate him after Kirk defeated the Kobayashi Maru and the Academy discussion after it. It all stems from that event.

Spock thinks Kirk isn't worth consideration as an officer. Which is evident when he pleads with Pike over Pike's decision to make Kirk first officer. Kirk didn't rate Spock because Kirk doesn't work logically and Spock's approach is the anthithesis of Spock's.

That is why they were against each other. They antagonised each other. That comes to a head in the wake of the Vulcan attack on the bridge deciding what to do. When Spock is being compromised by emotional strain of his recent losses.

They confront each other and Kirk loses because Spock doesn't really give his idea consideration and then wants him locked up. When Kirk loses his temper he then throws him off the ship.

Then the rest happens...

But at that point - neither has a long term plan - but the point is the fight between them. Which is then echoed later after Kirk has the ammunition to make Spock see his decision making is being affected by his emotions. That allows Spock to see where he has been mistaken, and brings him and Kirk together to begin forming the friendship.

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by kevin

But at that point - neither has a long term plan - but the point is the fight between them. Which is then echoed later after Kirk has the ammunition to make Spock see his decision making is being affected by his emotions. That allows Spock to see where he has been mistaken, and brings him and Kirk together to begin forming the friendship.

Uhmm... Spock does have had a long term plan: An enemy vessel is on its way to destroy earth. Nobody aboard has any idea how to stop the agressor. Therefore a confrontation can only lead to the destruction of the Enterprise. All this would achieve is to add fourhundred dead bodies to the six billion on earth. Only responsible choice of a responsible leader? Retreat. Save as many lives as you can. Return to the next Starfleet base, wich is the fleet at the Laurentian System. After all Earth is lost anyway.

Kirk on the other hand insists to steer the ship and all its crew into certain death. He is eager enough about it to get agressive and even violent.

After relieving Spock from Command and taking over he still has no plan. He knows now about the red matter. But thats all. Its Checkov who comes and proposes a way to beam aboard the Narada. Once the away team is there they simply search for the red matter. But what did they intend to do with it? If Spock would not have decided to sacrifice his life by crashing the Jellyfish into the Narada...

However, yeah, Kirk not having a plan is nothing new. My point was actually about the rant of McCoy and especially about the fact that Spock asks Bones about "his oppinion" without specifying about what he is talking. McCoy makes Kirks fate the topic.

By the way... when Kirk was in the lifepod and the computer told him to stay in the pod and wait for the SAR party to pick him up... what was his plan then? Ideas?

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Botany Bay

Uhmm... Spock does have had a long term plan: An enemy vessel is on its way to destroy earth. Nobody aboard has any idea how to stop the agressor. Therefore a confrontation can only lead to the destruction of the Enterprise. All this would achieve is to add fourhundred dead bodies to the six billion on earth. Only responsible choice of a responsible leader? Retreat. Save as many lives as you can. Return to the next Starfleet base, wich is the fleet at the Laurentian System. After all Earth is lost anyway.

So what's 400 next to more 6 billion? Well, 12 billion if you include the Vulcan death toll. By all means, run away and hide from the big ship, but don't dress it up as anything other than scarpering without even trying.

Kirk on the other hand insists to steer the ship and all its crew into certain death. He is eager enough about it to get agressive and even violent.

After relieving Spock from Command and taking over he still has no plan. He knows now about the red matter. But thats all. Its Checkov who comes and proposes a way to beam aboard the Narada. Once the away team is there they simply search for the red matter. But what did they intend to do with it? If Spock would not have decided to sacrifice his life by crashing the Jellyfish into the Narada...

I'm not sure the collision wasn't the plan. It seemed to play that way. Using the Red Matter the way they did was the only way to really destroy the Narada.

However, yeah, Kirk not having a plan is nothing new. My point was actually about the rant of McCoy and especially about the fact that Spock asks Bones about "his oppinion" without specifying about what he is talking. McCoy makes Kirks fate the topic.

I'll take a very close listen again to that conversation when I see the film next.

I don't recall it being pointless the last twice I saw it. Of course, different minds take different things away.

By the way... when Kirk was in the lifepod and the computer told him to stay in the pod and wait for the SAR party to pick him up... what was his plan then? Ideas?

Why would I care? He doesn't have plans - he wings it. You weren't expecting him to just sit and wait?

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by kevin

So what's 400 next to more 6 billion? Well, 12 billion if you include the Vulcan death toll. By all means, run away and hide from the big ship, but don't dress it up as anything other than scarpering without even trying.

But Kevin, thats what Spock was asking Kirk the whole time: Trying what??? Go after the ship and try to stop it by doing what??? Whats your plan??? What do you suggest???

Kirks whole answer was to yell and scream that regrouping with Starfleet was a waste of time. Yeah, Mr. Superman. If you can stop that ship then please just tell us how!

You see what I mean? Kirk had no answer (the writers that is) and thats why the whole scene was a little contrived in my eyes. There was no real dispute. Kirk had nothing to offer. He just went all angry and ticked out.