[TJJones]

I think there were seven ships, including the Enterprise, docked at the starbase. I see that as a rapid-response task force and only a small fraction of the total capability of Star Fleet.

Just throwing arbitrary number out there, an average sector patrol is likely 10-12 ships (including support and scout vessels), covering surveying, first contact, diplomacy, show-the-flag, mercy and other missions as assigned. If there are 12 such task forces in Star Fleet (using the TOS Constitution-class numbers as a guide), that gives us 120-144 ships in various patrol sectors.

Add to that maybe 5-6 rapid-response groups of 6-7 ships for emergencies of various kinds, giving us another 30-42 ships. Sprinkle in a few flagships and we get numbers like 150-190 ships.

My guess would be that, given that Star Fleet ships would seem to go through a "yard period" (read: refit) after every 5 year mission, that would indicate that approximately 1/5 the fleet is unavailable at any single point. That would put the entire size of the fleet somewhere in the 190-240 ship range.

Of course, these are just arbitrary numbers, but they're somewhat based on the fact that the Klingons had some 40+ ships around Rura Penthe, meaning they could afford to put that many ships around a prison planet and still (likely) manage their other border and fleet requirements.

[TJJones]

Wow, I think I killed the thread....

[Capt Dunsel]

On that topic, I would love to see an analysis of the Federation economic system in the 23rd century....

Starships are like aircraft carriers and space shuttles - really expensive public goods that are rarely built and seldom go "poof" (perhaps Space Shuttles more than aircraft carriers). Still, the wealthiest country in the current world cannot afford more than handfuls of aircraft carriers and space shuttles - and choosing to spend money on that means you are not spending it on universal health care, feeding and housing everyone, education, etc.

I suspect that the drivers of the economy are radically different by the 23rd century. We understand that no one is hungry or homeless any longer and that people are free to achieve their potential. Also, someone once said that the universe in the 23rd century is an awfully energy-rich one compared with today. That is, the toys enjoyed then use insanely large amounts of energy on an almost casual basis - motorcycle hovercrafts, shuttle crafts that can achieve orbit (think about that in terms of current physics), let alone starships. Yes, there are dilithium crystals and antimatter drives - but are they using this stuff in motorcycles and shuttlecraft? Doubtful.

Anyway, what keeps me up at night is wondering how the 23rd century economy affords hundreds of starships, and where all the energy comes from for the quality of life you observe. I suppose if someone invented a radical new energy source, it might well change the nature of everything in the world.... Maybe that is the answer.

[AyanEva]

Originally Posted by Capt Dunsel

On that topic, I would love to see an analysis of the Federation economic system in the 23rd century....

Starships are like aircraft carriers and space shuttles - really expensive public goods that are rarely built and seldom go "poof" (perhaps Space Shuttles more than aircraft carriers). Still, the wealthiest country in the current world cannot afford more than handfuls of aircraft carriers and space shuttles - and choosing to spend money on that means you are not spending it on universal health care, feeding and housing everyone, education, etc.

I suspect that the drivers of the economy are radically different by the 23rd century. We understand that no one is hungry or homeless any longer and that people are free to achieve their potential. Also, someone once said that the universe in the 23rd century is an awfully energy-rich one compared with today. That is, the toys enjoyed then use insanely large amounts of energy on an almost casual basis - motorcycle hovercrafts, shuttle crafts that can achieve orbit (think about that in terms of current physics), let alone starships. Yes, there are dilithium crystals and antimatter drives - but are they using this stuff in motorcycles and shuttlecraft? Doubtful.

Anyway, what keeps me up at night is wondering how the 23rd century economy affords hundreds of starships, and where all the energy comes from for the quality of life you observe. I suppose if someone invented a radical new energy source, it might well change the nature of everything in the world.... Maybe that is the answer.

Well if the nations of Earth are no longer squabbling with each other, that cuts out a lot of money from military budgets, which can be used for things like healthcare, education, etc. You're only going to need a fraction of that excess money, if used properly, to cover the things that I just mentioned. The rest of of the money then goes towards starships and whatnot.

I think it's cutting out intercontinental wars that's probably one of the main answers.

[kevin]

Man, I was in a thread for months over this question - upshot, impossible to quantify in any real way.

They have as many ships as you want them to have!

[Samuel]

Originally Posted by AyanEva

Well if the nations of Earth are no longer squabbling with each other, that cuts out a lot of money from military budgets, which can be used for things like healthcare, education, etc. You're only going to need a fraction of that excess money, if used properly, to cover the things that I just mentioned. The rest of of the money then goes towards starships and whatnot.

I think it's cutting out intercontinental wars that's probably one of the main answers.

Quite right. So instead of the US worrying about the Russians both get to worry about the big fleets of the Klingons, Romulans, Cardasians, Borg, Tholians, and who knows what else. Starships that are much more complex and expensive than naval ships that dont need life support, torpedoes/phasers and only have to go a few thousand miles instead of across the galaxy. Dont forget all the starbases that need their own defenses against enemies. So much for universal health care.

[moogybaby]

Well, the fleet's got to be pretty large if they built a Spacedock that was capable of berthing a huge number of ships all at once.

Think about the US Navy, and how you'd never see every ship in the same port all at once.

There'll always be a certain number on tour, deployed, being refit, etc. Using that logic alone the fleet has to have over a hundred capital ships given the size of the Federation.

IMHO

[Commodore]

I think Orci and the gang are favoring that the Starfleet in this movie is probably the same size as Starfleet was during TOS--definitely smaller than it was during TNG and deployed rather thinly.

But it also makes me wonder if we have returned to the original TOS practice of a starship being a special kind of Starfleet vessel that's separate from cruisers, freighters, etc.

[AyanEva]

Originally Posted by Samuel

Quite right. So instead of the US worrying about the Russians both get to worry about the big fleets of the Klingons, Romulans, Cardasians, Borg, Tholians, and who knows what else. Starships that are much more complex and expensive than naval ships that dont need life support, torpedoes/phasers and only have to go a few thousand miles instead of across the galaxy. Dont forget all the starbases that need their own defenses against enemies. So much for universal health care.

Ha! But we get to split the cost with the other Federation members, so we still get health care!

Well, except for Vulcan now. They probably can't contribute many material resources. I imagine they're a bit cash/credit strapped at the moment.

[Yagami Crewman]

On the plus side, assuming they ever bother showing ANOTHER Constitution class ship, perhaps we can get rid of the "Twelve like it in the fleet comment."