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  #31  
Old 05-22-2009, 03:17 PM
Samuel Samuel is offline
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
Take the Undiscovered Country! It dealt with fear and bigotry from an american perspective and the whole world understood it. Why? Because the United States are the last remaining world dominating superpower.
Well it was for awhile. Militarily it still is. But in every other way... lookout here comes China and Europe.
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  #32  
Old 05-22-2009, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
Okay, I really dont know what people keep misunderstanding. So, lets say the next movie would deal with bigotry and fear from a german perspective. A current german discourse that is distorted and heavily affected by bigotry, fear and ignorance could be the ongoing debate about the mindset of the eastern german population. The debate is wether or not the eastern german people have worked off their GDR past. Yet several important factors are willfungly ignored, belittled, distorted, stripped from context. Now one could take this conflict and make it be set in space. Yet I really have my doubts this would be understood by an american public or a french public. For them the whole metaphor would be lost. They would not see why the movie is of importance or for whom.

On the other hand the United States have their own discourses. Torture is a topic. The value of diplomacy over military action is a topic. The best way to handle terrorism is a topic. All those discourses are distorted by bigotry, fear and ignorance. And taking those discourses and using them as a template for a conflict in space, that is a metaphor that would be understood by the american audience. And because the european audience is quite versed in american discourses too, that is why europeans would understand it too. The same for a russian audience, an aisan audience or an arab audience.

You see what I mean?

Take the Undiscovered Country! It dealt with fear and bigotry from an american perspective and the whole world understood it. Why? Because the United States are the last remaining world dominating superpower. American discourses dominate the news all over the world. Its like in the ancient roman empire. Romans may not have known what was going on in northern Gaul, but northern Gaul knew what was going on in Rome.
Fair enough perhaps the complexity of the issue from the German perspective would be lost, but I don't believe it would be any less relevant. We are all people, we all have parts of our past that we are not proud of... we need to learn to empathize with each other so we can forgive past transgressions and forget our past differences.
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  #33  
Old 05-22-2009, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RedShirtsRuS View Post
The difference between science and religion is that science THRIVES on questioning itself and changing any falsehoods as new evidence comes to light. Religion thrives on pretending it never changes even though it does so inevitably.

As for the "American" perspective. Which one exactly?

America is diverse enough that it CAN represent the world when you think about it.

America IS diversity.

We can do away with calling it the "American" perspective and we can call it the "diverse" perspective if it sits better with everybody.
tell that to the people who were there first!!!

which in fact would make a great TREK movie. a technologically superior race colonizes a planet already occupied by a pre-space travel society.
how would American writers handle such a story?

RedShirt, if we get into a debate involving religion, will the thread get locked?
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  #34  
Old 05-22-2009, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Indestructible Object View Post
We are all people, we all have parts of our past that we are not proud of... we need to learn to empathize with each other so we can forgive past transgressions and forget our past differences.
Thats not the actual german conflict. Thats what the motto of the actual american conflict is. You see? You just had an american perspective. Even if I would have described the german discourse with a highly detailed metaphor, you would still have seen it from your american perspective. So why should american writers, making a movie for an american audience, who look for current conflicts not take an american perspective. The american audience will see all the metaphors through an american perspective anyway. Then go right to american problems. You know the problems, you are versed in them... its perfect.
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  #35  
Old 05-22-2009, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
Okay, I really dont know what people keep misunderstanding. So, lets say the next movie would deal with bigotry and fear from a german perspective.
friend, no-one is misunderstanding what you said, but again you should read Indestructible Object 's post for answer to that.
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  #36  
Old 05-22-2009, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DammitJim View Post
tell that to the people who were there first!!!

which in fact would make a great TREK movie. a technologically superior race colonizes a planet already occupied by a pre-space travel society.
how would American writers handle such a story?
That was somewhat handled in Insurrection. The technologically superior "race" being the Federation and the Bah'ku being the "primitive" society. They're not pre-space travel, but they established a colony to escape technology altogether.

Kind of like the Amish do. There are actually discussions I have read about whether the Amish should quit being so isolationist and join the rest of the United States. I have no opinion about that matter right now though.

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Originally Posted by DammitJim
RedShirt, if we get into a debate involving religion, will the thread get locked?
Probably will be shut down sooner or later. But we're being civil. So maybe not. I don't make the rules here. And I have problem with some of those rules and I have stated that. But this isn't my forum and I cant dictate the rules.

I just think if Star Trek allows for discussing controversial ideas then this forum should also allow for discussing controversial ideas. It is only logical I think.
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  #37  
Old 05-22-2009, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
Thats not the actual german conflict. Thats what the motto of the actual american conflict is. You see? You just had an american perspective. Even if I would have described the german discourse with a highly detailed metaphor, you would still have seen it from your american perspective. So why should american writers, making a movie for an american audience, who look for current conflicts not take an american perspective. The american audience will see all the metaphors through an american perspective anyway. Then go right to american problems. You know the problems, you are versed in them... its perfect.
you do understand that there is a world outside the US, right?
just because orci and kurtzman are americans doesn't mean they look at things the same way another american does!!
maybe they can see the big picture!!
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  #38  
Old 05-22-2009, 03:33 PM
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Hmmm. Never thought of Q and borg that way. I would like to think I am pretty good at reading between the lines but those went over my head.

Oh and as for the borg again. They didnt even have a leader until the movie. And actually she didnt describe herself as one. I forget the exact words but she said she was more of a bonding agent and than a leader. Maybe sort of like the big brother type that nobody ever saw except as a face on the television.
I think DS9 tried to deal with some church/state issues, but I have to agree with Samuel that I never thought of the Borg as a metaphor for the Vatican, although i know Roddenberry liked to do God-type stories, and I think you are right about Q being a God-like Being, of the OT variety. In "Encounter at Farpoint," Picard (Christ) and crew (Theives) are put on trial (the cross) for the crimes (sins) of humanity, by Q (Father-God).

I always considered the Borg a metaphor for a cult, or a Communist society, even though Roddenberry was a utopian Socialist.
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  #39  
Old 05-22-2009, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by RedShirtsRuS View Post
That was somewhat handled in Insurrection.
by "somewhat" I take it you mean "badly". but didn't Picard refer to the Jewish people specifically in discussing the forced relocation (or was it a broader statement than that?)

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Originally Posted by RedShirtsRuS View Post
Probably will be shut down sooner or later. But we're being civil. So maybe not. I don't make the rules here. And I have problem with some of those rules and I have stated that. But this isn't my forum and I cant dictate the rules.

I just think if Star Trek allows for discussing controversial ideas then this forum should also allow for discussing controversial ideas. It is only logical I think.
there was something I wanted to say in regards to your comments on religion but I've been online for too long already and I'm too tired to remember now. maybe next time.
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  #40  
Old 05-22-2009, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
Thats not the actual german conflict. Thats what the motto of the actual american conflict is. You see? You just had an american perspective. Even if I would have described the german discourse with a highly detailed metaphor, you would still have seen it from your american perspective. So why should american writers, making a movie for an american audience, who look for current conflicts not take an american perspective. The american audience will see all the metaphors through an american perspective anyway. Then go right to american problems. You know the problems, you are versed in them... its perfect.
Then make me understand, explain it to me. I don't understand what I am doing or exactly what you are trying to say... It's not like we Americans are free of shame for past deeds. We practically destroyed ourselves in our civil war, and I shudder to think of the shame full acts perpetrated on native Americans through our history. I am not beyond understanding, though I cant claim to fully understand your dispute... but you could at least help me to try.
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