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  #21  
Old 05-14-2009, 07:23 PM
barbreader barbreader is offline
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GR wasn't big on religion because a realistic picture of a religious earth would be mostly Christianity (1.9-2.1 billion), Islam (1-1.3 billion) Hindu (0.83 billion approx) Buddhist (0.36 billion approx) and he was a post WWII lapsed Jew (12-14.5 million, that's 0.012 billion). He probably didn't know enough about the world's major faiths to depict them in a reasonable way, and he didn't want to either insult them or do the work to understand them.
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  #22  
Old 05-14-2009, 07:32 PM
teamosil teamosil is offline
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Originally Posted by SpaceButler View Post
What always stands out to me is in TNG at least, how few shots were fired, how you could so often find a way to work things out and reason with people. Of course this gave me, as an impressionable child, a very unrealistic view of the world.
I don't know how unrealistic that really is. For every war on earth that has occurred, there have been a dozen times that two countries that didn't see eye to eye managed to avoid war through diplomacy or deterance or economic solutions or some other means.

To radically oversimply things, TNG was set during a time of an uneasy balance between superpowers that was periodically threatened by treaty violations, by one group supplying weapons to one side or another in an ancillary conflict, and so on. It's pretty comprable to what was going on during most of the cold war imo.
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  #23  
Old 05-14-2009, 07:34 PM
teamosil teamosil is offline
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Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
You bring up good points, indeed....but those points are best delivered in episodic television, not in a movie that may produce sequels only every two to three years. (Personal opinion only....not fact.)
Yeah agreed. I'm itching for a new series... As great as the movies are, the series are where the real depth that makes Star Trek so cool comes out.
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  #24  
Old 05-14-2009, 07:58 PM
mjcrawford mjcrawford is offline
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Originally Posted by TMRiddle1912 View Post
As much as it surprises me to say this, I agree. I am a Socialist to my very core, but I too believed TNG took the whole self-righteous, secular humanist aspect too far. That's why I liked DS9 so much, because the Starfleet officers all had the twin foils of the uber-capitalist Quark and religious Kira to kind of cast a different light on things and show that the Federations way wasn't better, just different. It's actually that show that helped me accept different political viewpoints and not be quite so opinionated, lol.
Well said TMRiddle!

We may have differing political ideals, however as I said before, it is the differences between the crew of TOS that made them great. No one political, sexual, or religious/atheistic view was considered superior to others. They all have strengths, and weaknesses. I am not surprised that someone who might fight me tooth and nail on some political issue could see my point about TNG and TOS. After all if we are all adults, and reasonably intelligent we should be able to see that we are not perfect, and those we sometimes oppose are not always ‘evil’ and that to me is at the very core of TOS.

Live Long and Prosper.

P.S. I too enjoyed some of the interesting scenarios in DS9 (Quark and Rom were the first capitalists post-TOS that had any real substance) involving differing points of view. I truly think that DS9 was a VAST improvement over TNG… but then the Great Bird of the Galaxy would disagree on that, sadly.
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  #25  
Old 05-14-2009, 08:01 PM
Futureguy Futureguy is offline
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Originally Posted by mjcrawford View Post
I know that among my fellow Trekkies this is not a popular thing to say, but the “missing” secular humanism is one of the better “changes” to Trek in this film (IMHO) before you flame me to oblivion, let me elaborate:

Yes, in TNG (the only series that really depicted Roddenberry’s “dream”) the federation was a very atheist, communist, secular humanistic society and it actually is a shining example of what is wrong with just such a society… anyone who is different is bad… or stupid. Worf was the only main cast member who had a different way of thinking about things, and he was generally reduced to comic relief, or an example of bad thinking, it was very rare that Worf’s approach to anything was actually correct. Aside from Worf, the crew may have been diverse genetically, but intellectually they were all a bunch of clones of white-liberal-secular-collage professors. In fact the only race depicted to be capitalist in any way was the Feringi, and they of course were slimy, untrustworthy, had no morals to speak of, and only worshiped profit. It is no wonder why many TNG fans love the Klingons, they are the ONLY real example of diversity on the show.

Interestingly there is one episode of TOS that also reflected Roddenberry’s dream, “the Cage” in which we see a crew of all white (except Spock) all men (except ‘number one’ a main character who did not even have a name and token women for sexual tension) and unified thought.

The rest of TOS celebrated diversity, every member of the crew was proud of their heritage, and was different in the way they approached a problem, and because of that they could solve any problem, society had evolved to respect all beliefs not eliminate all religion. Heck there was even a religious wedding ceremony in a chapel on board the ship, (“…and in accordance with our many beliefs…”) and yes… MONEY existed. (“Scotty, you just earned your pay for the week…” “Well, if you consider my cost, storage and a reasonable mark-up the tribbles will cost 10 credits a head…”)

The new film is truly a return to the Original Series, not to Roddenberry’s ‘dream’ and for that I am thankful. I know that many of you do not think of Starfleet as military, but I have never seen a NASA astronaut, or a merchant marine say as Kirk did, “…I’m a solder, not a Diplomat…” that very line tells you that he is in the MILITARY. Yes Starfleet’s missions are peaceful, just as our military has peaceful missions that it embarks on, however in time of war make no mistake, it is Starfleet, not some other branch of service that will rush into the fight. (DS9 ‘Dominion War’ anyone?)

In this film some people have complained that there is product placement (Nokia, Budweiser, Jack Daniels, Slusho) however I think that the reason for this is clear, J.J. was making a statement that this is not Roddenberry’s Trek, rather a re-imaging of TOS. The best Trek of all. A Trek in which humans are Free to pursue jobs, make money, or join Starfleet, and we have gotten past our petty differences.

Seems that a long time ago that it was written tha the more ST (TOS) tried to be humanistic, the more it seemed to express religious sub themes. IE: TWOK/STIII, (Spocks soul, though it was call something else. Kirk mentioning it would cost him his soul, if he did not try and return Spock's body to Vulcan.) Don't forget "Bread and Circuses" from TOS either. Seems that there were elements of various religions sprinkled through the TOS series/movies. I can't say particularily of TNG, as as well as I liked it, it just was not the TOS that I was introduced to. Take into consideration I was watching it, TOS, first run, on TV during the 60"s. It was a time that helped to define Trek.
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  #26  
Old 05-14-2009, 09:06 PM
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TMRiddle1912 TMRiddle1912 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjcrawford View Post
Well said TMRiddle!

We may have differing political ideals, however as I said before, it is the differences between the crew of TOS that made them great. No one political, sexual, or religious/atheistic view was considered superior to others. They all have strengths, and weaknesses. I am not surprised that someone who might fight me tooth and nail on some political issue could see my point about TNG and TOS. After all if we are all adults, and reasonably intelligent we should be able to see that we are not perfect, and those we sometimes oppose are not always ‘evil’ and that to me is at the very core of TOS.

Live Long and Prosper.

P.S. I too enjoyed some of the interesting scenarios in DS9 (Quark and Rom were the first capitalists post-TOS that had any real substance) involving differing points of view. I truly think that DS9 was a VAST improvement over TNG… but then the Great Bird of the Galaxy would disagree on that, sadly.
Indeed. I always enjoy a good political debate, but I hardly ever find the people I'm debating "evil." Although there have been a few who believed Hitler walked on water and the Holocaust was a hoax. I have a very big problem with those kind of people. But I do agree with you on the TOS crew. They played off of each other splendidly and never thought of themselves as better than anyone.
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  #27  
Old 05-15-2009, 01:17 AM
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stuart hammal stuart hammal is offline
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I think the one thing which shows that the UFP/Starfleet is not a military organisation (despite the ranks and other paraphinalia) is that as expressed in TNG's "The Wounded" the Federation does not start wars.
Anyone who watches Star Trek just to get turned on by the militaristic aspects is doing Star Trek a disservice.
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  #28  
Old 05-15-2009, 01:21 AM
the_lizard the_lizard is offline
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Star Trek is a communist military oligarchy
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  #29  
Old 05-15-2009, 01:29 AM
teamosil teamosil is offline
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Originally Posted by stuart hammal View Post
I think the one thing which shows that the UFP/Starfleet is not a military organisation (despite the ranks and other paraphinalia) is that as expressed in TNG's "The Wounded" the Federation does not start wars.
The preamble to the Federation Charter starts "We the life forms of the United Federation of Planets, determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war..."

Their first and primary goal is to create a universe that will one day be free of war completely. That said, I don't think that means they aren't a in part a military organization. It is a military designed to engender peace and protect the basic rights of all beings rather than to advance the interests of a particular nation. Closer to something like a more active version of the UN peacekeeper force than say the US military, but a substantial part of their role in the universe is still military.
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  #30  
Old 05-15-2009, 01:35 AM
teamosil teamosil is offline
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Originally Posted by the_lizard View Post
Star Trek is a communist military oligarchy
"Communist" is not an accurate description of the economics of Star Trek. There are still private organizations that are fully in control of their own scientific and economic endeavors. There is no state control over the means of production. It's just that it shares one part of Marx's utopian vision- production so dramatically outpaced consumption that they no longer had a need for money as a way to determine how to distribute goods. It's post-capitalistic, as is Marx's vision, but not directed by the state as Marx predicts a post-capitalistic economy would be.
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