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  #121  
Old 05-26-2009, 10:59 AM
Samuel Samuel is offline
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Originally Posted by TGElder View Post
In this episode Kirk is about to perform a wedding ceremony between two officers. And there is no evidence that he was her direct superior.
Yes there is. The guy specifically says so. They talk about the job. She says something to the effect of "Im still going to marry you mister". And he says" Until then I am still your superior officer. So move is mister". Then she has this great stare after he leaves. I might have the words mixed up.
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  #122  
Old 05-26-2009, 11:06 AM
TGElder TGElder is offline
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Yes there is. The guy specifically says so. They talk about the job. She says something to the effect of "Im still going to marry you mister". And he says" Until then I am still your superior officer. So move is mister". Then she has this great stare after he leaves. I might have the words mixed up.
That does sound about right. OK so there are allowances. But this is between two officers. not between an instructor and a cadet. Who then uses her influence to get a posting on the Enterprise.
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  #123  
Old 05-26-2009, 11:28 AM
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horatio horatio is offline
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First of all, "fraternizing" has been handled pretty ambiguously in Trek, e.g. Picard had problems with it, Riker not really.

Rules and regulations apart, it's not like the situation was ordinary, especially not for Spock. Kirk is the last one who would complain and Spock's mind is not really focused on Starfleet protocols in this moment.


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Originally Posted by TGElder View Post
That does sound about right. OK so there are allowances. But this is between two officers. not between an instructor and a cadet. Who then uses her influence to get a posting on the Enterprise.
She is the best cadet specialized in communications, so she was supposed to serve on the Enterprise. Spock assigned her to another ship to avoid 'emotional disturbances'.
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  #124  
Old 05-26-2009, 11:52 AM
Samuel Samuel is offline
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First of all, "fraternizing" has been handled pretty ambiguously in Trek, e.g. Picard had problems with it, Riker not really.
They were not superior-junior officers but Troi had no problem with it concerning Worf. IIRC his only problem was with Riker. I assume such things are of course permitted today. Officers are not monks or priests. But maybe they cannot serve on the same ship for example.
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  #125  
Old 05-26-2009, 11:59 AM
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horatio horatio is offline
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Sorry, I was not precise. Riker was frequently seen flirting with female officers and Picard had a short relationship with a lieutenant or lieutenant commander which he ended because he considered it inappropriate and because he could not seperate his duty as captain and his private life when he sent her on a dangerous mission.
So in the 24th century there seem to be no "no-fratenrizing" rules, while "A Night in Sickbay" as well as the TOS episode where Kirk lusts after Rand suggest that such rules exist in the former centuries.
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  #126  
Old 05-26-2009, 12:18 PM
calliefox calliefox is offline
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Sorry, I was not precise. Riker was frequently seen flirting with female officers and Picard had a short relationship with a lieutenant or lieutenant commander which he ended because he considered it inappropriate and because he could not seperate his duty as captain and his private life when he sent her on a dangerous mission.
So in the 24th century there seem to be no "no-fratenrizing" rules, while "A Night in Sickbay" as well as the TOS episode where Kirk lusts after Rand suggest that such rules exist in the former centuries.

It's important to remember that Starfleet is a "peacekeeping and humanitarian organization." These guys are BAD at military conduct. I spent plenty of time in the old series railing about how they'd ignore the procedures of rank and file. Nemesis is a wonderful encapsulation of this where, somehow, Troi has the Conn -during a combat scenario- because all the other senior officers have gotten distracted and wandered off. At this point in the movie I was like "OH, COME ON." But it was hilarious because of all the time I'd spent complaining about this, before.

One of my favorite things about the new movie IS that they've had Starfleet personnel act like military personnel. The opening scene with Robau walking the halls to his death and people spinning to the side into salutes during scenes of panic and chaos because he is. the. captain. were remarked on by everyone in my household after the movie. There's multiple Conn juggling scenes where the Conn is actually handed off in proper navy fashion…but to Chekov, a seventeen year old, which culminates in the "Aye aye…..ay ay ay" bit that is so brilliant.

That said, it's still Starfleet and I'm pretty sure that as professional as they seem in the new movie, there's still enough civilian peacekeeping force vibe in them that people aren't going to be court marshaled left and right.
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  #127  
Old 05-26-2009, 12:26 PM
Samuel Samuel is offline
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Sorry, I was not precise. Riker was frequently seen flirting with female officers and Picard had a short relationship with a lieutenant or lieutenant commander which he ended because he considered it inappropriate and because he could not seperate his duty as captain and his private life when he sent her on a dangerous mission.
I dont remember that episode well except for the more memorable parts but his reasoning did not ever include regulations. Just appearances. At least I dont think they did. If so, I would think he wouldnt have even put himself in that position, especially potentially breaking them for his own personal gain.

Another... it was a fantasy but the one where Riker married his counselor (the one from the holodeck, right?) didnt set off any alarm bells to suggest it wasnt real until he realized what she was. Just two situations where two captains would ignore a very big regulation, if it existed. And they would have been the ones most responsible for such things for their junior officers and crew.
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  #128  
Old 05-26-2009, 12:52 PM
erruve erruve is offline
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Regarding fraternization, let's not forget one of the most famous on TOS. It's in Balance of Terror. Kirk is about to conduct a wedding ceremony between a subordinate and her direct superior officer when they get the alert regarding the outpost. We're talking direct line of command.

I don't know if their relationship started in the Academy or not. Was anything said in the novel regarding this?
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  #129  
Old 05-26-2009, 01:46 PM
Samuel Samuel is offline
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Read a few posts above.
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  #130  
Old 05-26-2009, 01:56 PM
Samuel Samuel is offline
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Originally Posted by calliefox View Post
That said, it's still Starfleet and I'm pretty sure that as professional as they seem in the new movie, there's still enough civilian peacekeeping force vibe in them that people aren't going to be court marshaled left and right.
I hate to say it. But when this all got started they were probably supposed to be sort of a U.N. type force but with much bigger guns. Federation council = UN security council with its permanent big shots and a bunch of smaller ones. In ways the PD is sort of like how it wouldnt get involved in 'smaller' matters. Posturing but no action. Even then it was weak posturing because of compromises and self-interest among its members. Certainly not an exact parallel but a pretty decent metaphor.

Old old old argument but perhaps the relationship laxness seen in Trek works today in that force as well.
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