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Old 05-08-2009, 08:33 AM
The Commodore The Commodore is offline
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Default Canon war (Spoilers)

This is absolutely spoiler-ridden; beware.

First of all, I have to make sure I iterate the movie's excellence. The writers and director got the spirit of American go-getterism bang-on. Whereas in most movies of that kind are ridiculous, transparent bores that excite only those that shovel propaganda like I shovel chocolate, the tone of the themes here (presumably the principles of Starfleet Academy) are invigorating. Captain Pike's speech in the bar to Kirk is a perfect example. For the first time in my life, I think I understood the theme of greatness that's so entrenched in the heart of the U.S. culture: beyond the propaganda that anyone can do it (and that therefore anyone who doesn't can only blame themselves), are several modern hero epics about those who do achieve true greatness. In true hero epic tradition, this greatness-persona is a rebellious, nonchalant, violent man. He's a modern Cu Chullain, without the madness.

But there's a problem that's been poking at me. When I realised the bad guy had been killed, I looked at my watch, and saw that it had passed the 2-hour mark. When I realised the action in the movie was therefore shutting down, it became clear that none of the catastrophic events in the movie were being reversed, and we suddenly realised the scope of what the writers had done here. Vulcan was gone forever, and therefore events would turn out very differently by the 24th century. The writers had created a new universe through time-travel mumbo-jumbo, to free themselves from trekkie nitpickerism, and to have a clean-slate where they didn't have to tip-toe everywhere. I can appreciate that desire and they did it well (they now have their clean slate and can do whatever the hell they want to the Enterprise and its crew, and all bets are just off), but there's a large problem.

So the movie's conflict started when a 24th- or 25th-century vessel went back in time to screw around with everything. They succeeded. They destroyed the entire planet of Vulcan, and one realises that characters such as Tuvok will now never be born. Romulus is also gone, within a couple hundred years. And this is never solved: we were all waiting for Kirk to go into that time vortex and set everything right again, but he never did. Now, while there was some one-line justification by Uhura, interpreting the altered time-line as "an alternate reality", it doesn't really work that way: if you go back in time to change the past in a catastrophic way, the original time-line ceases to exist; the "alternate reality" is not parellel, but rather replaces the original. This means that the Star Trek universe we know and love has a deadline, after which it comes to a permanent stop, being replaced by a far worse one in which Vulcans are an endangered species and the Federation is thus far weaker. Let's leave alone the problem that now the mission to stop the supernova that destroyed Romulus may now be changed, creating a paradox in which there's no one to go back and complete the cycle for the moment, but here's the problem: incorporating this into canon does not make a parellel timeline like the writers clearly intended, in order to make everyone happy; accepting that this really happened means that the original universe will cease to exist by about 2400, and that this new universe (without much of the subsequent series ever happening) is how it will now go; it's the real universe. Which means any writer writing about the Trek series will have a choice to disregard this story's having existed at all, or be writing under the guise that the universe is about to end, OR write about the new universe. In other words:

They have declared canon war.
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:38 AM
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OneBuckFilms OneBuckFilms is offline
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Parallel Reality. Spock is surprised by the things that changed, and the younger Spock alludes to this. He actually deduces logically that it is a parallel reality created by Nero's arrival in 2233.04 and intercepting the Kelvin.
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:39 AM
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No.
They.
Haven't.

The original time line does not (repeat: NOT) cease to exist. Read the interviews with Orci and Kurtzman.

For cryin' out loud....
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:41 AM
The Commodore The Commodore is offline
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Well think about the word "parellel": how exactly does the original universe continue on after the past has changed? This black hole (to leave alone for a second that a black hole is not a time machine, but a matter-crushing event) is not trans-dimensional, or at least there is no indication of such, but rather through time, which means that the timeline in the original universe was altered, changing events, not branching off a different series of events. The only way to possibly salvage the original universe is to treat it as a similar reality in which Nero goes back and fails to destroy Vulcan or even the Kelvin.

That being said, if you disagree, or have evidence to the contrary, I'm thrilled to hear about it; but don't start the "for crying out louds". We're just debating here, relax.
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:42 AM
Thascales Thascales is offline
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Quote:
Now, while there was some one-line justification by Uhura, interpreting the altered time-line as "an alternate reality", it doesn't really work that way: if you go back in time to change the past in a catastrophic way, the original time-line ceases to exist; the "alternate reality" is not parellel, but rather replaces the original.
I don't agree with the idea that there's only one timeline, regardless of how it's been treated in previous versions of Trek. I suspect that the method of travel, the red matter, or something caused an alternate reality to be created in this instance. If it was the same timeline, then Temporal Investigations would have made sure the film never happened. :P

So, what does this mean? Vulcan was destroyed, of course. But Romulus no longer has to be: as I recall, it was Vulcan's faffing about that allowed Romulus to be destroyed in the first place. Maybe things can be better next time. Maybe Spock Prime will know how to set things in motion for the better.

Secondly, because it's an alternate timeline, there's no paradox if no-one goes back in time with the red matter etc etc etc. Without wanting to go into stuff like closed timelike curves and other jargon, there need be no more intervention.
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:43 AM
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http://trekmovie.com/2008/12/11/bob-...-real-science/
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:45 AM
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Raul4510 Raul4510 is offline
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I like your post. Here is where I disagree. It is not confirmed onscreen if Nero lives or dies all we know is that his ship disappears into a vortex similar to the way he came into the altered timeline. Prime Spock is alive and well in the alternative timeline but is believed to be lost or dead in the Prime Timeline. It has been established by the writers as well as discussed on screen that this is an alternative timeline. The Prime timeline still exists and in fact continues in the Star Trek Online game coming out. There is NO canon war going on because both universes do co-exist. There will still be stories taking place in the Prime Timeline in the form of novels and Star Trek Online. Who knows what will happen in future movies but one thing is certain everything that has come before still happened and will continue on.
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Commodore View Post
Well think about the word "parellel": how exactly does the original universe continue on after the past has changed? This black hole (to leave alone for a second that a black hole is not a time machine, but a matter-crushing event) is not trans-dimensional, or at least there is no indication of such, but rather through time, which means that the timeline in the original universe was altered, changing events, not branching off a different series of events. The only way to possibly salvage the original universe is to treat it as a similar reality in which Nero goes back and fails to destroy Vulcan or even the Kelvin.

That being said, if you disagree, or have evidence to the contrary, I'm thrilled to hear about it; but don't start the "for crying out louds". We're just debating here, relax.
The universe effectively splits into two parallel quantum realities the moment the Black Hole exit point opens at Stardate 2233.04.

This means that the Kelvin is Canon in BOTH realities, BTW :-)
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul4510 View Post
I like your post. Here is where I disagree. It is not confirmed onscreen if Nero lives or dies all we know is that his ship disappears into a vortex similar to the way he came into the altered timeline. Prime Spock is alive and well in the alternative timeline but is believed to be lost or dead in the Prime Timeline. It has been established by the writers as well as discussed on screen that this is an alternative timeline. The Prime timeline still exists and in fact continues in the Star Trek Online game coming out. There is NO canon war going on because both universes do co-exist. There will still be stories taking place in the Prime Timeline in the form of novels and Star Trek Online. Who knows what will happen in future movies but one thing is certain everything that has come before still happened and will continue on.
Exactly - the only headache now being two sets of canon. Prime universe canon and new universe canon. But they both continue to exist.
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:52 AM
The Commodore The Commodore is offline
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I'm glad that perspective, that sentiment, exists, that the universe continues. As a philosopher, I just want to justify that ontologically. One has to admit, this is a new view of time-travel, that nothing is changed but rather it creates another universe in which it does (and believe me, the sheer ontological implications of creating a universe are huge), and one has to admit this new perspective is somewhat... ad-hoc, per se: we're taking this new perspective just to feel comfortable that our beloved story is continuing (and there's nothing wrong with that); but I just have to know how that's possible before I feel comfortable.

I found the video interview a few moments ago, and I'm watching it now. We'll see if it satisfies, or if it's a bit too much of a stretch.
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