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  #611  
Old 05-12-2009, 10:40 PM
Sesshu Sesshu is offline
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Default I have way too much time 4

Further, what was Spock going to do? He was going to create a black hole to swallow the imminent supernova. Apart from the absurdity of this, how is this going to save Romulus and Remus? You throw a black hole into a star and when it collapses everything is going to be okay in the solar system?

A thought, since thought appears to be slim. Why destroy Romulus and Remus in the supposed real timeline? You're going to pull the plug on Star Trek, okay, but why make it public? Why not keep the option open, just from a business standpoint? Why burn a bridge when you don't have to? Because you'll find some sloppy writer to figure out a ridiculous way to bring back Romulus and Remus if you need them? Brilliant. Ed Wood brilliant. Nero could have been angry with Spock for some other reason.

In order to contain the supernova, I don't know what reason for at this point (apparently to save Nero's ship?), Spock Prime throws a few red matter pellets (whatever) into the supernova and we have a black hole that sucks Nero in, with Spock trapped as well. And I just found out that the supernova was threatening the galaxy. Really? A supernova that threatens a galaxy? No wonder Spock said that so quickly that I didn't catch it. (These aren't the droids you're looking for.) Ed Wood Prime stuff. Why not just have the force of the supernova make some red matter come out accidentally? Or have Spock do it because at this point he may as well see the result? Because someone actually believed that a supernova can threaten a galaxy. If not, then they didn't care. Which is worse? Disrespect, or writers/producers out of their element? I guess the former. No wonder the movie was frenetically paced. It had much to hide. (Move along).

So as Nero's ship gets pulled in by the black hole it should be ripped, crumpled, crushed into... wait... it comes out the other end, in the past no less, in prime condition, close enough for the U.S.S. Kelvin to detect something is going on (the anomaly). Why not just get a hammer, or a large rock, hit me over the head with it, and take my wallet? Because that's illegal, but making a movie that does the same thing isn't. That's not how black holes work. Granted, Vger, actually a 1970's Voyager craft (Star Trek I) supposedly fell into a blackhole to... blah, blah. Dang. Why repeat the mistake?

That was a pretty big insult. Watching a space ship go slowly (isn't it supposed to freeze at the event horizon relative to the observer?) into a black hole only to come out, well, there really is no other end is there? I mean, please don't give me the white hole hypothesis. And even if that's true, you come out as energy. One does not survive a black hole. Why not just have Nero slingshot around a sun? There were plenty out there. They did it in ST4 and at least that was believable. Crushed inside a black hole, but you come out the other end all fine and dandy. Not a scratch. At least they made fun of themselves in ST4. Bones to Kirk: "You're proposing we go back in time, pick up two humpback whales, go forward in time, drop them off and hope they tell this probe what the hell to do with itself?" Kirk: "That's the general idea." Bones: "Well that's crazy!" Kirk:"If you have a better idea, now's the time." I mean, at least they spoofed themselves and the script. I see "Ed Wood with a big budget" here.

Spock follows into the black hole but comes out 25 years later. Given the mass, fuel component and the acceleration curve I can accept this ;D I mean, it's already done, my face is slapped, so you may as well send the second ship through, whenever, whatever. Spock Prime gets captured by Nero, who just happens to know when Spock will emerge, and in fact, that he will at all. Really? He's on Psychic Friends too? How does he know? I'm just asking for things to be explained semi-lucidly. I can suspend my disbelief. I don't want to suspend my thinking altogether, though. And if Nero has a "time machine", why doesn't he just go back and warn his people about the supernova?

Spock Prime on the planet with Kirk and the mind meld, Scotty (minus the Ewok) is fine. It's a roller coaster ride. Half pretty/really good, half hammer over the head. Spock gives Scotty the equation Scotty will eventually discover himself, shades of ST4 (which is actually not a bad Easter egg), so they can beam over to an "in warp drive for a few hours" Enterprise which they would not really be able to beam to in TNG era. Spock stays with the Ewok and Scotty and Kirk beam aboard the Enterprise, Kirk with the "advice" to insult young Spock into losing his cool so Kirk can assume command. Well, hey, it's interesting. Okay, I'll buy it. I "did" say I liked many things. Spock loses his cool, almost crushing Kirk's throat. It's happened before, during Pon farr and also on that planet (TOS) where everyone's thoughts come true (Shore Leave: where Kirk meets his old academy tormentor, Finnegan--he would have been nice to see, eh?). Oh wait, my bad. That's the other planet/episode Spock takes a casual/insubordinate attitude on. I forget the episode's name. Well anyway, Spock, repulsed by what he has just done, logically resigns from his post and Kirk takes over. Okay. A bit patched up, but okay.

Around this point in the movie I no longer understand the reason for "drill, baby, drill." If the red matter gets ignited by phaser fire, and probably a lot of other stuff will do it too, why bother drilling to Earth's core, or Vulcan's? Just throw a few drops on the Earth and torch them. Voila, black hole. Does it really matter how Vulcan or Earth get sucked in? The rest isn't bad, now that the worst has been done. I will say that I did not like the final battle. Enterprise just didn't look good either. I also liked the beam lasers it used to have, not the new pulse thingies. And it seemed not to do much more than come out of hiding near Titan/Saturn and "spray some pulse" to cover young Spock as he flew Spock Prime's ship.

Let's put it this way, if it's been frenetic action so far, the ending better be good action, frenetic or otherwise. If you're setting me up, then give it to me. It wasn't "bad", Spock did (with the script and special effects) a nice job. Nero's ship was being sucked into a black hole (and it looked like it came out the other end--please, no, spare me, not more of Nero in a sequel). Kirk did offer to help Nero and Nero refused. There was a cute "not this time" by Spock, and Enterprise essentially fired at a ship that was already going to be crunched. So which is it? It gets destroyed or just moved to another place/time by the black hole? At this point I don't know what laws of physics, if any, the universe is following.

It must get destroyed since Enterprise started to get sucked in and no way did they want to follow Nero. How things change. Scotty, bless his miracle self, got a few more warp factors out of the engines, threw some refrigerators into the black hole (well, that's what it looked like) and they got out in a burst of white light. All very odd looking, then again, it did remind me of how Vger "went away" a bit. For the frenzied pace of the movie, the ending was underwhelming to me, though not bad.

I came out of the movie rather conflicted. And at my age and given the movie, that's pretty silly, but it shows the power someone's (Roddenberry's) vision can have on a person. Don't get me wrong. I looked forward to this movie, although I heard about it only two months ago. And as I walked out the theater I began to dislike it, or more to the point, I liked what the writers did less and less. I did like a lot of it. But a lot of it was mindless as well. Please, do not "Ed Woodize" Star Trek.

Those who accept this movie have no need to reconcile anything. That's fine. It will be interesting to see if I, and others like me, reject this movie as "not Star Trek," or if I somehow accept it, or perhaps the sequel will make me "grudgingly" accept it, or somesuch. Amazing how great a hold I've let a 43 year old "friend" have over me. I'm not sure if I want "this" thing to be my friend, though. Well, the friend helped me through some rough times, and entertained me as well. It would be nice if the writers & Co. would try to at least not make some of the science "completely" ridiculous.

Biggest gripes:

Half of it is okay, half of it is ridiculous, and it's all we have.

Big plot holes and totally absurd science combined with absurd deviation from canon. There was no need to have Spock and Uhura "make-out" on the transporter. Blow up Vulcan if you must, but don't be absurd with Spock and Uhura.

Do not "ever" show me a ship going in and out of a black hole again Would you have a ship go through a star? Well, a black hole is much, much worse.

Hire a consultant that would know a supernova could not threaten the galaxy. That's like setting off a firecracker and having it blow up Earth and the solar system.

Red matter was very "Ed Wood". So was some other stuff. How about actually writing a "full" plot next time?

Fast paced introduction of the original crew combined with a bit too much caricaturization.

Frenetically paced movie. Star Wars had a pretty good story to tell and it took the time to tell it when it had to.

Biggest grins:

I can always ignore this movie and the sequels.

I may actually get used to it (the timeline change) if they "fix" the Spock/Uhura thing.

The first 40-50 minutes or so were great with the character introductions and such. For me, very emotional. Very, very well done, even if by accident I applaud here. Very, very nice.

Overall (taking Star Trek out of the equation along with the black hole and supernova) it "was" a decent movie with many spots that were great.

Conclusion:

I have way too much time on my hands! And J.J. Abrams needs a science consultant

If you got this far, all I have to say is, goodness, why?
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  #612  
Old 05-12-2009, 11:00 PM
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Big D Big D is offline
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A ship capable of travelling thousands of times the speed of light could indeed conceivably survive contact with a black hole - especially an artificially-created one with all kinds of potential time-travelly side-effects, which are a 'canon' property of synthetic black holes.

The galaxy-destroying black hole notion is clearly meant to be something that even 24th-century science can't fathom, hence why it's a big enough threat that it involved a desperate response involving artificial black holes. Such a black hole wouldn't necessarily have destroyed the Romulan solar system, either, since black holes don't actually continue expanding and devouring everything in their path, the way they're often depicted in sci-fi. The use of 'red matter' as the plot-enabling device would a good idea, I think, since it avoids the scientific issues that'd result from trying to use a real-world substance, such as antiparticles or dark matter or the like. If they say the stuff can 'seed' black holes of varying size, or create ruptures in time, then so be it.
Quote:
Nero's ship was being sucked into a black hole (and it looked like it came out the other end--please, no, spare me, not more of Nero in a sequel).
Nah, it broke up and was presumably destroyed.
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...and Enterprise essentially fired at a ship that was already going to be crunched. So which is it? It gets destroyed or just moved to another place/time by the black hole? At this point I don't know what laws of physics, if any, the universe is following.
If the ship survives passage through the black hole, then presumably the hole could function as a wormhole. But that'd depend on having the speed and structural integrity to negate the gravity well's destructive power, which Nero's damaged ship clearly couldn't do.

If you want some truly, awesomely bad black hole physics, try the early Voyager episode which had the ship flitting around for several days inside the Schwarzschild radius of a black hole without even noticing
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  #613  
Old 05-12-2009, 11:20 PM
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I REALLY enjoyed the new movie. Scotty was a riot, Chekov was funny, McCoy was played very well. Spock was really good and quite convincing. I began to accept Kirk more as the movie progressed. There were moments when the camera angle was just right and when Kirk displayed certain expressions that YES, he actually LOOKS LIKE a young (Shatner) Kirk for a few seconds several times during the movie. I enjoyed seeing a bit of the chemistry of their relationships developing together as a team. It was nice how well they fit Christopher Pike into this and Spock's position request.

I know we're going to watch this again and again.
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  #614  
Old 05-13-2009, 12:41 AM
Sesshu Sesshu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big D View Post
A ship capable of travelling thousands of times the speed of light could indeed conceivably survive contact with a black hole - especially an artificially-created one with all kinds of potential time-travelly side-effects, which are a 'canon' property of synthetic black holes.
I think you must be writing about the red matter created black holes. Was that red matter designed to create a synthetic black hole? I also don't know if there is actually a difference between a black hole and a synthetic one. A black hole is a black hole, no? There are big ones, there are small ones. I've never heard of a synthetic black hole so I'm at a disadvantage. If you mean a Star Trek synthetic black hole then I didn't catch where that was "explained" or at least spoken about in Star Trek.

I don't think the ship actually moves faster than light since that is impossible (so far). Rather, the warp drive (in my imagination) creates a "space" bubble around the ship and that section of space is manipulated to move faster than light. Since space is speculated to have traveled faster than light shortly after the Big Bang, it can be made to do so again (hypothetically). The ship inside "thinks" space is moving and that it is standing still, so there is no Relativity rule broken. The ship is "dragged" along by the space. It was "explained" much better than my obviously poor attempt in an article I read on Yahoo regarding "Star Trek and current physics". Of course, they were hypothesizing. I have no idea what would happen if such a ship ran into a black hole. My best guess would be that the ship would be crunched but perhaps you have information I do not

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Originally Posted by Big D View Post
The galaxy-destroying black hole notion is clearly meant to be something that even 24th-century science can't fathom, hence why it's a big enough threat that it involved a desperate response involving artificial black holes. Such a black hole wouldn't necessarily have destroyed the Romulan solar system, either, since black holes don't actually continue expanding and devouring everything in their path, the way they're often depicted in sci-fi. The use of 'red matter' as the plot-enabling device would a good idea, I think, since it avoids the scientific issues that'd result from trying to use a real-world substance, such as antiparticles or dark matter or the like. If they say the stuff can 'seed' black holes of varying size, or create ruptures in time, then so be it.
I thought the supernova was threatening the galaxy. You're saying there was a galaxy-destroying black hole in the area as well? I must have missed that in the film. Where did it come from? And black holes do "devour" anything that gets caught in their gravitational field, as least I haven't heard anything to the contrary. It may take them some time to do it, depending on their size, but do it they will. As far as I know, anyway. And how would a small synthetic black hole be able to "stop" a galaxy-devouring one? That must be one heck of a black hole. Are you pulling my leg?


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Nah, it broke up and was presumably destroyed. If the ship survives passage through the black hole, then presumably the hole could function as a wormhole. But that'd depend on having the speed and structural integrity to negate the gravity well's destructive power, which Nero's damaged ship clearly couldn't do.
Thank you for sparing me another Nero. Actually he wasn't bad, just not very well explained. You know, if the film explained it the way you've explained it, not that I'd buy it since our physics isn't that good, I would at least say, okay, they made an attempt to explain it, it sounded like they put "some" thought into it, so I'll buy it (movie-wise). How long would that have taken them to do? 2-3 minutes spent to reassure the "picky" fan? I know they can't give me exact science. I just wanted them to give me some relatively good sounding techno-babble. Like Spock in ST4 with getting high energy "fission" photons to restructure the Klingon vessel's dilithium crystals. I know it's bull, but as long as they make a reasonable attempt I'm happy. Well, thank you for your explanation. I hope they hire you.

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Originally Posted by Big D View Post
If you want some truly, awesomely bad black hole physics, try the early Voyager episode which had the ship flitting around for several days inside the Schwarzschild radius of a black hole without even noticing
I didn't particulary care for Voyager, though I did watch a number of them. Now you're making me pull out the books so I can remember what the Schwarzschild radius is I thank you very much for helping me out.
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  #615  
Old 05-13-2009, 01:29 AM
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I thought the supernova was threatening the galaxy. You're saying there was a galaxy-destroying black hole in the area as well? I must have missed that in the film.
Nope, that was me making a typo I meant 'supernova', but my mind was wandering...
Quote:
And black holes do "devour" anything that gets caught in their gravitational field, as least I haven't heard anything to the contrary
Anything that gets caught in their gravity well, certainly - but they aren't the utterly voracious, eternally-expanding force sometimes depicted in sci-fi. In fact, it'd be entirely plausible for a solar system to orbit a black hole, just as it can orbit a star. The only difference is that anything approaching too close to the black hole - within its event horizon/schwarzschild radius - would find itself unable to escape, and destroyed unless protected by some kind of magical sci-fi technology. Every object in the universe has a schwarzschild radius, but its diameter has to be that radius or smaller before its density causes it to become a black hole. Our planet, for instance, has a schwarzschild radius of about half a centimetre.
Quote:
How long would that have taken them to do? 2-3 minutes spent to reassure the "picky" fan? I know they can't give me exact science. I just wanted them to give me some relatively good sounding techno-babble.
Fair point, it wouldn't have been hard to adda throwaway line or two to cover those aspect.
Quote:
ike Spock in ST4 with getting high energy "fission" photons to restructure the Klingon vessel's dilithium crystals.
Indeed - "high-energy photons" are simply gamma particles, extrememly basic but rather deadly radiation. It's rather odd that such a simple solution to the dilithium crystal problem never occurred to anyone in the 23rd century... also strange that nothing aboard the Klingon ship could create gamma radiation. But still, needs must when the plot comes calling
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  #616  
Old 05-13-2009, 06:32 AM
AyanEva AyanEva is offline
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which monologue? I want to fast forward to that part and watch


When Spock Prime is saying "Space, the final frontier blah blah blah..." Just as he gets to "to boldy go where no one has gone before" the fins split, light up, the engines power up and the ship jumps to warp.
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  #617  
Old 05-13-2009, 07:51 AM
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Yeah, it has to be reiterated - the entire plot cracks under the least amount of questioning. Improbable is only the beginning.

You'd have thought the writers would have passed it to a couple of people blessed with some basic sense to see how it played for them.
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  #618  
Old 05-13-2009, 08:13 AM
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Further, what was Spock going to do? He was going to create a black hole to swallow the imminent supernova. Apart from the absurdity of this, how is this going to save Romulus and Remus? You throw a black hole into a star and when it collapses everything is going to be okay in the solar system?

In order to contain the supernova, I don't know what reason for at this point (apparently to save Nero's ship?), Spock Prime throws a few red matter pellets (whatever) into the supernova and we have a black hole that sucks Nero in, with Spock trapped as well. And I just found out that the supernova was threatening the galaxy. Really? A supernova that threatens a galaxy? No wonder Spock said that so quickly that I didn't catch it. (These aren't the droids you're looking for.) Ed Wood Prime stuff. Why not just have the force of the supernova make some red matter come out accidentally? Or have Spock do it because at this point he may as well see the result? Because someone actually believed that a supernova can threaten a galaxy. If not, then they didn't care. Which is worse? Disrespect, or writers/producers out of their element? I guess the former. No wonder the movie was frenetically paced. It had much to hide. (Move along).

So as Nero's ship gets pulled in by the black hole it should be ripped, crumpled, crushed into... wait... it comes out the other end, in the past no less, in prime condition, close enough for the U.S.S. Kelvin to detect something is going on (the anomaly). Why not just get a hammer, or a large rock, hit me over the head with it, and take my wallet? Because that's illegal, but making a movie that does the same thing isn't. That's not how black holes work. Granted, Vger, actually a 1970's Voyager craft (Star Trek I) supposedly fell into a blackhole to... blah, blah. Dang. Why repeat the mistake?

That was a pretty big insult. Watching a space ship go slowly (isn't it supposed to freeze at the event horizon relative to the observer?) into a black hole only to come out, well, there really is no other end is there? I mean, please don't give me the white hole hypothesis. And even if that's true, you come out as energy. One does not survive a black hole. Why not just have Nero slingshot around a sun? There were plenty out there. They did it in ST4 and at least that was believable. Crushed inside a black hole, but you come out the other end all fine and dandy. Not a scratch. At least they made fun of themselves in ST4. Bones to Kirk: "You're proposing we go back in time, pick up two humpback whales, go forward in time, drop them off and hope they tell this probe what the hell to do with itself?" Kirk: "That's the general idea." Bones: "Well that's crazy!" Kirk:"If you have a better idea, now's the time." I mean, at least they spoofed themselves and the script. I see "Ed Wood with a big budget" here.

Spock follows into the black hole but comes out 25 years later. Given the mass, fuel component and the acceleration curve I can accept this ;D I mean, it's already done, my face is slapped, so you may as well send the second ship through, whenever, whatever. Spock Prime gets captured by Nero, who just happens to know when Spock will emerge, and in fact, that he will at all. Really? He's on Psychic Friends too? How does he know? I'm just asking for things to be explained semi-lucidly. I can suspend my disbelief. I don't want to suspend my thinking altogether, though. And if Nero has a "time machine", why doesn't he just go back and warn his people about the supernova?

Spock Prime on the planet with Kirk and the mind meld, Scotty (minus the Ewok) is fine. It's a roller coaster ride. Half pretty/really good, half hammer over the head. Spock gives Scotty the equation Scotty will eventually discover himself, shades of ST4 (which is actually not a bad Easter egg), so they can beam over to an "in warp drive for a few hours" Enterprise which they would not really be able to beam to in TNG era. Spock stays with the Ewok and Scotty and Kirk beam aboard the Enterprise, Kirk with the "advice" to insult young Spock into losing his cool so Kirk can assume command. Well, hey, it's interesting. Okay, I'll buy it. I "did" say I liked many things. Spock loses his cool, almost crushing Kirk's throat. It's happened before, during Pon farr and also on that planet (TOS) where everyone's thoughts come true (Shore Leave: where Kirk meets his old academy tormentor, Finnegan--he would have been nice to see, eh?). Oh wait, my bad. That's the other planet/episode Spock takes a casual/insubordinate attitude on. I forget the episode's name. Well anyway, Spock, repulsed by what he has just done, logically resigns from his post and Kirk takes over. Okay. A bit patched up, but okay.

Around this point in the movie I no longer understand the reason for "drill, baby, drill." If the red matter gets ignited by phaser fire, and probably a lot of other stuff will do it too, why bother drilling to Earth's core, or Vulcan's? Just throw a few drops on the Earth and torch them. Voila, black hole. Does it really matter how Vulcan or Earth get sucked in? The rest isn't bad, now that the worst has been done. I will say that I did not like the final battle. Enterprise just didn't look good either. I also liked the beam lasers it used to have, not the new pulse thingies. And it seemed not to do much more than come out of hiding near Titan/Saturn and "spray some pulse" to cover young Spock as he flew Spock Prime's ship.

Let's put it this way, if it's been frenetic action so far, the ending better be good action, frenetic or otherwise. If you're setting me up, then give it to me. It wasn't "bad", Spock did (with the script and special effects) a nice job. Nero's ship was being sucked into a black hole (and it looked like it came out the other end--please, no, spare me, not more of Nero in a sequel). Kirk did offer to help Nero and Nero refused. There was a cute "not this time" by Spock, and Enterprise essentially fired at a ship that was already going to be crunched. So which is it? It gets destroyed or just moved to another place/time by the black hole? At this point I don't know what laws of physics, if any, the universe is following.

It must get destroyed since Enterprise started to get sucked in and no way did they want to follow Nero. How things change. Scotty, bless his miracle self, got a few more warp factors out of the engines, threw some refrigerators into the black hole (well, that's what it looked like) and they got out in a burst of white light. All very odd looking, then again, it did remind me of how Vger "went away" a bit. For the frenzied pace of the movie, the ending was underwhelming to me, though not bad.

I came out of the movie rather conflicted. And at my age and given the movie, that's pretty silly, but it shows the power someone's (Roddenberry's) vision can have on a person. Don't get me wrong. I looked forward to this movie, although I heard about it only two months ago. And as I walked out the theater I began to dislike it, or more to the point, I liked what the writers did less and less. I did like a lot of it. But a lot of it was mindless as well. Please, do not "Ed Woodize" Star Trek.

Those who accept this movie have no need to reconcile anything. That's fine. It will be interesting to see if I, and others like me, reject this movie as "not Star Trek," or if I somehow accept it, or perhaps the sequel will make me "grudgingly" accept it, or somesuch. Amazing how great a hold I've let a 43 year old "friend" have over me. I'm not sure if I want "this" thing to be my friend, though. Well, the friend helped me through some rough times, and entertained me as well. It would be nice if the writers & Co. would try to at least not make some of the science "completely" ridiculous.

Biggest gripes:

Half of it is okay, half of it is ridiculous, and it's all we have.

Big plot holes and totally absurd science combined with absurd deviation from canon. There was no need to have Spock and Uhura "make-out" on the transporter. Blow up Vulcan if you must, but don't be absurd with Spock and Uhura.

Do not "ever" show me a ship going in and out of a black hole again Would you have a ship go through a star? Well, a black hole is much, much worse.

Hire a consultant that would know a supernova could not threaten the galaxy. That's like setting off a firecracker and having it blow up Earth and the solar system.

Red matter was very "Ed Wood". So was some other stuff. How about actually writing a "full" plot next time?

Fast paced introduction of the original crew combined with a bit too much caricaturization.

Frenetically paced movie. Star Wars had a pretty good story to tell and it took the time to tell it when it had to.

Biggest grins:

I can always ignore this movie and the sequels.

I may actually get used to it (the timeline change) if they "fix" the Spock/Uhura thing.

The first 40-50 minutes or so were great with the character introductions and such. For me, very emotional. Very, very well done, even if by accident I applaud here. Very, very nice.

Overall (taking Star Trek out of the equation along with the black hole and supernova) it "was" a decent movie with many spots that were great.

Conclusion:

I have way too much time on my hands! And J.J. Abrams needs a science consultant

If you got this far, all I have to say is, goodness, why?
I feel your pain.
At this point I don't think there a point in reviewing the movie.
I don't think I'll do one.
THIS IS MOVIE IS WHAT WE THOUGHT IT WAS....
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:15 AM
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Yeah, it has to be reiterated - the entire plot cracks under the least amount of questioning. Improbable is only the beginning.

You'd have thought the writers would have passed it to a couple of people blessed with some basic sense to see how it played for them.
More like FIZSURES or CREVASSES...CASSASMS
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:15 AM
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A cheeseburger instead of a steak?

Which was to Saq's last post about the movie being what we thought.
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