[Saquist]

Originally Posted by kevin

IMO, Khan made a great villain because although he had a sob story of his own, he didn't dwell on it. He was simply crazy from that isolation and took sheer delight in destroying as much as he could. He was bad, and he was unrepentant.

He had no Grand Plan, just took what opportunity presented to him.

Exactly, resolve.
Even when your task is impossible it doesn't discourage the villian.
Ultimately how a villian handles himself against the Hero is the ultimate critera

Originally Posted by StarTrekXIfan

these are all fair points, however I would question comparing Star Trek villains whether they be Khan or Nero to Hitler; Hitler was not just the villain in some story, he was a dictator of a Fascist regime, who committed genocide and filled peoples minds with xenophobic and racist beliefs, who plunged Europe and subsequently the world into another world war.

I guess the debate does boil down to criteria but if you are arguing Nero had no depth as a villain, despite his accomplishments, then I would probably suggest you think about the fact that he was an intensely patriotic Romulan who wanted to alter History for the sake of his world's future prosperity, he knew he could never return to his time or bring back his wife again, so he decided to do his best to change history for sake of his future wife and people.

However I wasn't aware we were debating to win an argument, I just enjoy discussing the film and sharing different viewpoints, if you think what I've had to say in Nero's 'defence' as a strong villain is weak that's fine, I don't really have anything else to say on the subject.

Consider this aswell.
Nero destroyed the planet that would help Romulus 300 some odd years later by a supernova. 300 years from now what's to stop Romulus from being destroyed? The institute that would create that ship doesn't exist anymore.

His family will likely die again.
Instead of giving the vulcans the knowledge to do the job right he kills him and only chance to do the job right.

[tomcatjosh]

Agreed. And the Enterprise getting sucked in by That black hole was amazing too!

[kevin]

Although in that respect - would it not seem likely that Spock would inform the relevant powers so that when that time came again, action could be more quickly taken?

But yes, it seems Nero cut of his nose to spite his face when he destroyed Romulus. You'd think that after a 25 year wait, that might have occured to him.

[Saquist]

You'd think...
But Nero maybe bumbled himself into a solution...He delievered the ship to the Federation so the technology of the Federation is about to take a massive leap forward.

[kevin]

Apparently with 3000 ft long Constitution it already has! I can't wait to see the new 24th Century equivalent of the Galaxy.

It'll be longer than a Super Star Destroyer and Starfleet will have 10,000 of them.

[horatio]

But the difference is that not Darth Vader but the farm boy Anakin Skywal ... ehh ... Jim Kirk will command one.

[StarTrekXIfan]

Originally Posted by Saquist

Exactly, resolve.
Even when your task is impossible it doesn't discourage the villian.
Ultimately how a villian handles himself against the Hero is the ultimate critera



Consider this aswell.
Nero destroyed the planet that would help Romulus 300 some odd years later by a supernova. 300 years from now what's to stop Romulus from being destroyed? The institute that would create that ship doesn't exist anymore.

His family will likely die again.
Instead of giving the vulcans the knowledge to do the job right he kills him and only chance to do the job right.

I don't deny it seems like his plan is self-defeating, but remember Vulcan or Spock in particular did not save Romulus, Spock was unable to stop the supanova before it destroyed Romulus. That's why Nero is so mad at Spock, he blames Spock for not doing enough, quick enough. I guess that's why he's less concerned with preventing the supanova than getting even with Spock by making him suffer the same way Nero did. Yes it's a lot more simple and less calculating, but just because Nero wasn't a genius doesn't mean he's a bad villain.

I had another thought (which may well spark another debate) what about the enemy within? Surely in this film the more threatening enemy to Kirk was his own waywardness? His rejection of responsibility and his rebellion against authority, be it his step dad or the police. That's why Pike confronts him in the bar and encourages him to put his amazing natural aptitude to good use, for a good cause; to make his father proud and so that his sacrifice was not in vein. Overcoming that side of himself was surely the bigger enemy, personally, for Kirk in this film. Was it not? I like that angle of the storyline...again going back to one of my favourite lines in the film: "I dare you to do better."

Your thoughts.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by StarTrekXIfan

I don't deny it seems like his plan is self-defeating, but remember Vulcan or Spock in particular did not save Romulus, Spock was unable to stop the supanova before it destroyed Romulus. That's why Nero is so mad at Spock, he blames Spock for not doing enough, quick enough. I guess that's why he's less concerned with preventing the supanova than getting even with Spock by making him suffer the same way Nero did. Yes it's a lot more simple and less calculating, but just because Nero wasn't a genius doesn't mean he's a bad villain.

I see your angle.
I have to question how sincere Nero's feelings for his famly are if he didn't understand that he now had 325 years to save them. So then I question what is his revenge was really for.

Notice here too tells us something about all the characters that knew this...*raised eyebrow*

I had another thought (which may well spark another debate) what about the enemy within? Surely in this film the more threatening enemy to Kirk was his own waywardness? His rejection of responsibility and his rebellion against authority, be it his step dad or the police. That's why Pike confronts him in the bar and encourages him to put his amazing natural aptitude to good use, for a good cause; to make his father proud and so that his sacrifice was not in vein. Overcoming that side of himself was surely the bigger enemy, personally, for Kirk in this film. Was it not? I like that angle of the storyline...again going back to one of my favourite lines in the film: "I dare you to do better."

Now that's a more intresting concept.
The question is does he over come his on rebeliousness?

[SirWise23]

I liked the movie... however there is one thing that kindda pissed me off the more I think about it.

So yes... the Star Wars Universe is now different... some of the Vulcan's that existed will probably not exist in the future Star Trek's. This will also make the Romulins very different beings.

This is my main issue with the villan and the story line. The Villian comes back in time after seeing his planet be distroyed, but he was not a killer. In fact, when Kirk's father was killed, time wise, it was only a few minutes after Nero saw his planet destroyed. Why would he go on a killing spree like 15 minutes later. Also, Kirk's father told him the Star date. Instead of planning to destroy Vulcan in a time where it doesn't matter because Romulis still exists, why not try to save Romulis? He was in the past, and had red matter on him?

He could have helped find a new planet instead? The realistic fact is that even if Spock succeded in causing a black hole to suck the super novaing sun in, the people on the planet would have instantly frozee with no sun to warm it. All of the people would have died just the same.

[MrQ1701]

Originally Posted by SirWise23

I liked the movie... however there is one thing that kindda pissed me off the more I think about it.

So yes... the Star Wars Universe is now different... some of the Vulcan's that existed will probably not exist in the future Star Trek's. This will also make the Romulins very different beings.

This is my main issue with the villan and the story line. The Villian comes back in time after seeing his planet be distroyed, but he was not a killer. In fact, when Kirk's father was killed, time wise, it was only a few minutes after Nero saw his planet destroyed. Why would he go on a killing spree like 15 minutes later. Also, Kirk's father told him the Star date. Instead of planning to destroy Vulcan in a time where it doesn't matter because Romulis still exists, why not try to save Romulis? He was in the past, and had red matter on him?

He could have helped find a new planet instead? The realistic fact is that even if Spock succeded in causing a black hole to suck the super novaing sun in, the people on the planet would have instantly frozee with no sun to warm it. All of the people would have died just the same.

great questions. I agree with many of the plot holes you mention. I must defend ONE aspect you question. The star going supernove was never said to be the actual Romulan system star. In the Countdown comic it was explained the star was the Hobus star. The Hobus star supernova was unlike anything else ever seen in that it's explosive power would actually GAIN strength as it consumed more matter. In the comic nobody on Romulas believed it posed a threat because a regular supernova of a star so far away could never cause sush harm.