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  #21  
Old 04-21-2009, 03:06 PM
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I think Worf was shifting between the universes, not time travelling as such. He stayed in the same time, but travelled through multiple versions of how his life was at that time based on the decisions he could have made along the way.

I think part of Quantum says something similar about the way the universes are created.
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  #22  
Old 04-21-2009, 03:42 PM
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I think that's the difference though...he wasn't shifting to other universes that showed him what his life was based on his decisions....it was just showing him in different universes...he didn't cause all of those changes.

You need to have a focal point that affects everything if changed. I think Nero going back in time at the right moment is what changed the timeline. You can probably go back in time and have little hiccups or burps in the timeline, but when you hit that right focal point, you DRASTICALLY change history.
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  #23  
Old 04-21-2009, 04:23 PM
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Speaking of the "Temporal Cold War", what ever became of that? Was it ever fully resolved?
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  #24  
Old 04-21-2009, 05:46 PM
Mjolnir2000 Mjolnir2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by omegaman View Post
No matter how much you want this movie to take place in an alternate universe, it doesn't. Alternate timeline yes. Same universe yes. It's the past revisited. The future has yet to be written for this new timeline.
Except that's the only way this makes sense. TPTB have said that the prme timeline continues to exist after Nero and Spock arrive in the 23rd century. Now in every single episode and movie of Star Trek that has ever dealt with altering the past, it is understood that the previous timeline is erased. That's the whole point of following the Borg back in FC; if the prime timeline would have continued on, who cares if they assimilate earth in the past? Now granted, Star Trek isn't always consistent with time travel, but as far as changing the past is concerned, this is always the case. The only way to reconcile this is to say that the Abramsverse is an alternate universe.
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  #25  
Old 04-21-2009, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Mjolnir2000 View Post
Except that's the only way this makes sense. TPTB have said that the prme timeline continues to exist after Nero and Spock arrive in the 23rd century. Now in every single episode and movie of Star Trek that has ever dealt with altering the past, it is understood that the previous timeline is erased. That's the whole point of following the Borg back in FC; if the prime timeline would have continued on, who cares if they assimilate earth in the past? Now granted, Star Trek isn't always consistent with time travel, but as far as changing the past is concerned, this is always the case. The only way to reconcile this is to say that the Abramsverse is an alternate universe.
Prime timeline and alternate Prime timeline continue in same Universe. The SG1 Continuum DVD has a good explanation about the Timeline by a scientist who consulted on the project.
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  #26  
Old 04-21-2009, 06:53 PM
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There is proof that a mirror universe was exsisting prior to the events in Mirror Mirror. (As canon is concerned one might say.) In the events seen in A Mirror Darkly, we see that the mirror universe is still there before Kirk's accidental discovery of it. So if it exsists in the past (Pre Kirk.) I stands to reason that it will continue to exsist in the future.(Post Kirk)...In fact according to DS9, which is "canon" we see that the Mirror Universe is still alive and uh...well. So if a divergence in time and space can occur and travel to those dimensions is possible in Trek. Then there is no reason why the "Abramsverse" can co-exsist along side the "Prime" Universe just on a slightly different plain.
True, but that came from ENTERPRISE which doesn't count. Haha, just kidding!

My point was larger: the writer, Jerome Bixby, always intended the Mirror universe to be pre-existing way back in 1967 when the TOS episode was created. It had it's own history of events, etc.

Thus the precedent was set in TREK lore long before ENTERPRISE re-cycled the original idea for its own adaptation.

Speaking theoretically: had ENT never made their Mirror episode, the (pre-)existence of a true parellel/alternate universe to TREK-prime was established quite clearly. ENT merely picked up a thread long ago woven by TOS, confirming what had already been established. And it was still done better the first time.

That aside, I'm personally not convinced that a different look for Delta Vega and a few gray hairs on Pike constitute proof that this Abramsverse already existed before Nero and Spock arrive in it. Nor do they rule it out, in all fairness. I'll get a better idea when I see the whole film.
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  #27  
Old 04-21-2009, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaman View Post
Prime timeline and alternate Prime timeline continue in same Universe. The SG1 Continuum DVD has a good explanation about the Timeline by a scientist who consulted on the project.
How exactly is that supposed to work?

Let P(t, u) be the proposition that at time t in universe u, James T. Kirk resembles the 20th century actor William Shatner. If what you say is true, then:

P(23rd century, TOS universe) && !P(23rd century, TOS universe)

But as any first year computer science student will tell you, this is necessarily false. It obviously can't be the case that history both did and did not change in a given universe; that's just incoherent.

And Stargate, while at times entertaining, makes even less logical sense than Star Trek.
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  #28  
Old 04-21-2009, 07:28 PM
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This is where things get confusing interchanging "timeline" and "universe". For them to exist in parallel, they would likely be two universes.

I think -- perhaps -- it's simpler to use timeline in discussions since we are talking about events earlier in time than where we "are" in the prime universe. Orci and others have stated that the events of TOS -> continue existing aside from this time travel story line. If the two co-exist, this would seem to eliminate the opportunity for one past to 'erase' the future already seen.

This is also why I think that the two will not be 'reconciled', because they exist on different (but similar) planes of existence, and continue forward with different, separate outcomes unique to themselves.

Hey, if you really want to scramble your gray matter, try figuring out all the 'universes' in the TERMINATOR franchise! Talk about your core melting down!
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  #29  
Old 04-21-2009, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionTrek08 View Post
This is where things get confusing interchanging "timeline" and "universe". For them to exist in parallel, they would likely be two universes.
or we have multiple parallel timelines in a single Universe which can accessed by the certain types of astronomical events such as the described in the Countdown Comix, which do not create access to an alternate Universe with multiple alternate timelines.
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  #30  
Old 04-21-2009, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
I think Worf was shifting between the universes, not time travelling as such. He stayed in the same time, but travelled through multiple versions of how his life was at that time based on the decisions he could have made along the way.

I think part of Quantum says something similar about the way the universes are created.
When CO Riker (alternate reality) spoke to CO Picard on the view screen regarding the matching quantum signature, another Worf was standing behind his station. If the "real" Worf (from STNG canon) was on-board CO Riker's alternate reality Enterprise, then who was the Worf standing on CO Picard's bridge?
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