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Old 04-21-2009, 08:34 AM
I-Am-Zim I-Am-Zim is offline
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Default Linear Vs Dimensional Time Travel

Okay, I'm in a prolific thread starting mood these days.

Just thought I'd throw this one out there. I've posted this theory of mine on a couple of other threads. But I didn't get a lot of responses. So I thought I'd make a new thread about it just to see if you guys think I'm just a crazy traditionalist or if this makes any sense.

Here we go. Bob Orci did an interview with Trekmovie.com where he spoke ad nauseum about the latest, greatest, most tested and proven scientific theory of all time, drum roll please...Quantum Mecanics.

Now I don't claim to be a physicist, astronomer, or scientist of any kind. But I do watch a whole lot of the Science and Discovery channels. And I have a theory that may put some of us who are uncomfortable with the numerous changes being made to the established Trek universe a little bit more at ease.

It goes like this: I therorize that within the Fictional Star Trek universe there are two distinct types of time travel. Linear and Dimensional.

An example of linear time travel could be the DS9 episode "Trials & Tribble-Ations". Arn Darvin used the orb of time to send the Defiant back about 100 years to K-7 so he could try to Kill Captain Kirk and poison the grain shipment. I think that this was linear time travel in that the Defiant and its crew traveled back and then forward along their own specific timeline. No alternate timeline was created. If it were, then Temporal Investigations would never have known about it.

An example of dimensional time travel could be the ENT episode, "In A Mirror, Darkly". The entire episode took place in the Mirror Universe during the 22nd century. Yet the Defiant came from "our" universe 100 years in the future. So it actually crossed into a different, alternate universe.

"The Naked Time", "Yesterday's Enterprise", "Assignment Earth", "Yesterday's Enterprise", and several others could grouped into linear time travel because they stayed within their own timeline.

"Mirror, Mirror", "In A Mirror, Darkly", and other various Mirror Universe DS9 as well as some alternate universe VOY and TNG episodes could be grouped into dimensional time travel because they actually crossed into an alternate universe/reality where things were not the same as in "our" universe.

In other words, most of the time travel that goes on in the Trek universe is linear. Or travel along the established timeline. The only times that dimensional travel occurs is when there is a rift in spacetime or a singularity, or maybe Q is involved. In those instances the changes in the alternate universe are not evident in the "real" universe. Am I making any sense?????

I feel that when looking at this new version of Star Trek, we should think of the events of the movie taking place in an already existing alternate universe. The "Abrmasverse", as it has been affectionately referred to in this forum.

Spock and Nero are from the "real" Star Trek universe that we are all very well aware of. When
Spoiler?

and emerge 100+ years in the past in the Abramsverse.

The reason for my thinking this way is because there are a couple of things about the Abramsverse that don't jibe with the "real" universe prior to Nero's interference. First is the location and composition of Delta Vega. In "WNMHGB", we se that Delta Vega is a mostly barren planet with desert terrain and almost no vegitation. The orbital view from (TOS-R) shows a reddish surface with polar ice caps. In TOS, Delta Vega is also located very near the edge of the Galaxy. In the new movie,
Spoiler?
. That may not be a spoiler, but I just wanted to make sure I tagged it.

There is also the case of Captain Pike's age. This is completely speculative on my part. But think about this. Kirk is supposed to be the youngest captain in the history of Starfleet, having been promoted at the age of 31. If "The Menagerie" takes place in 2366 during Kirk's 2nd year of the first 5 year mission, then the events of "The Cage" as depicted in that episode should have happened in 2353 (13 years ago, according to Spock). At that time, Captain Pike looked about the same age as Kirk did in 2366. However, Pike had to be older, since Kirk was the youngest captain. So lets say that Pike was 35 in "The Cage" (since Jefffrey Hunter was actually close to 40-ish at that time, I think). That would make him about 48 at the time of "Menagerie" in 2366 when Kirk is 32. Now lets say that young Jimmy Kirk is 21 in the bar scene in the trailer. If that is his age (assuming legal drinking ages in the USA didn't change), then Pike would be 37-ish (in the "real" universe). In the trailer, Pike looks like he is in his early 50's. And that would coincide with Bruce Greenwood's age of 52. That would mean that in the Abramsverse, Christopher Pike was born about 15 years before his counterpart was born in the "Real" universe.

So the Abramsverse has at least two distinct differences from the real Star Trek universe that happened before Nero got there. This theory would satisfy the Quantum Mechanics aspects of multiverses while allowing the original "real" timeline to continue unaffected by the changes wrought by Nero in the Abramsverse.

That's why it is my belief that this movie literally takes place in an alternate universe completely removed from the "real" universe. This theory came about while I was trying to think of a way to make sense of all these changes and also thinking heavily about Orci's Quantum Mechanics comments. I don't know how everybody else is going to feel about it, but it sure makes me feel better.

And I'm sorry about the extremely long post. But it took a while to explain all this gibberish. Thanks in advance for your patience.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:34 AM
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Well I do not think that you are an over the top traditionalist because of this post. (It is because of others...lol..J/K) The theories that you have described sound ultimately sound and very plausible to me. In fact, it supports some of my reasoning for supporting this movie as far as plot is concerned. It also backs up when I tell other fans of the traditionalist persuesion that TOS Prime is still intact and that this Alternate universe, (Abramsverse) is a off shoot from it. Scientifically accurate and a fine way for fans that are Traditionalist, Revisionist, or On The Fence-ists to have a bit of common ground on this movie. Good Call!
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:57 AM
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Space is very much a fabric that can be bent, folded, or warped. Man hasn't figured a way to warp it enough so that a ship can ride a wave of space-time so it, in effect, "travels faster than light" yet, but it doesn't mean that it's out of the realm of future possibilities.

Time, on the other hand, in my opinion, is like a membrane or a bubble which can be expanded on contracted. One way to think of it is in the way one measures force. Force equals mass times acceleration (F=MA). What can lessen the impact force, for example, in a car accident? Time. Seat belts, airbags, and crumple zones in a car increases the time the impacts momentum affects the passenger of a car.

My sensibilities leads me to believe that space-time is a dynamic thing...Time is amorphic, more so than space, and that it has, in a sense, a "mass"--but not in the purest sense of the word. If somehow space is torn, one may have access to any other dimension, and if one isn't careful, another universe. So, where Captain Kirk, in the TOS time line may die a heroic, selfless death (ST: Generations), he may survive and go on to become an Admiral again in another. If the time line created in this movie impacts TOS' time line, hopefully its where TOS Kirk can get a feeling of "deja vu" and avoid that blasted scaffolding!

Rambling...right arm is numb and I'm in pain. I just came back from the physcial therapist who gave my right shoulder one heck of a work out!
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:57 AM
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BTW: Another great thread, ZIM!
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:07 AM
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No problem, Zim -- a very interesting post, though I pretty much understood the same from your earlier writings on the subject. But good to call it out as a separate topic for specific discussion.

One point, if I may:

Countdown spoiler:


I think your delineation of the two general time travel theories are good and handy references. Nice work.

I'm not sure the two differences you site in the Abramsverse are terribly large points is separating this from the 'prime' universe though, but in the end I guess it boils down to personal preference. My point is: I don't know that those two factors (Delta Vega's appearance and Pike's apparent age) will play crucial points in this story to require separating it from the prime universe from before Nero's arrival. At least I'm not sure what will really be gained by it when making the next film(s).

Put it this way: is the Kelvin a pure invention for Abrams' film, or just a filling in of a blank previously not known in George Kirk's life? Because we never saw this scene before in TOS, does that mean that it's an alternate universe creation or just an untold story in the same universe?

I'm willing to grant the film and its makers a certain amount of artistic license in creating this new TREK and consider relatively minor changes as contained in the same universe -- while drastic changes would be the cause or effect of an alternate universe/timeline.

After all, TOS-Remastered changed the look of MANY planets in the classic series with new visual effects -- must we know classify TOS-R as its own separate universe, or simply a redrawing of some details in the prime universe? Did Delta Vega in TOS look the same as it did in TOS-R? Only on the surface because they couldn't change the sets. Perhaps my tolerance level for some changes is a bit higher than others, but I'll gladly go with a different look for Delta Vega in storytelling than create an alternate universe for every single change coming down the ... Pike.

Also, I'd much prefer they hire a good actor to play Pike than one who merely matches Jeffrey Hunter's extrapolated visual age as he *might* have looked 11 years after the events seen in THE MENAGERIE. Given how stressed Hunter was as Pike in the pilot, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he had aged quite a bit (wrinkles, gray hair) by the time Kirk came on board the E.

On the other hand, episodes like "Mirror, Mirror" definitely establish the existence of parallel or alternate universes in TREK (even the TOS era) prior to the intersection of the prime and alternate dimensions. Your theory certainly has bona fide precedent, and from the very beginnings of TREK.

But like "Mirror, Mirror", since the history or information before that intersection is never explained or explored thereafter, I'm not sure saying an alternate universe was running before a given story actually amounts to much difference going forward. A fun point for discussion, to be sure, but I'm not sure it will affect new films much... at least, not until I see TREK myself.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:25 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8w95xIdH4o


but yes, different types of time travel, good post
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionTrek08 View Post
But like "Mirror, Mirror", since the history or information before that intersection is never explained or explored thereafter, I'm not sure saying an alternate universe was running before a given story actually amounts to much difference going forward. A fun point for discussion, to be sure, but I'm not sure it will affect new films much... at least, not until I see TREK myself.
There is proof that a mirror universe was exsisting prior to the events in Mirror Mirror. (As canon is concerned one might say.) In the events seen in A Mirror Darkly, we see that the mirror universe is still there before Kirk's accidental discovery of it. So if it exsists in the past (Pre Kirk.) I stands to reason that it will continue to exsist in the future.(Post Kirk)...In fact according to DS9, which is "canon" we see that the Mirror Universe is still alive and uh...well. So if a divergence in time and space can occur and travel to those dimensions is possible in Trek. Then there is no reason why the "Abramsverse" can co-exsist along side the "Prime" Universe just on a slightly different plain.
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Tribble View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8w95xIdH4o


but yes, different types of time travel, good post
ROFL!!!! Most excellent!
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAPTAIN MOUSE View Post
There is proof that a mirror universe was exsisting prior to the events in Mirror Mirror. (As canon is concerned one might say.) In the events seen in A Mirror Darkly, we see that the mirror universe is still there before Kirk's accidental discovery of it. So if it exsists in the past (Pre Kirk.) I stands to reason that it will continue to exsist in the future.(Post Kirk)...In fact according to DS9, which is "canon" we see that the Mirror Universe is still alive and uh...well. So if a divergence in time and space can occur and travel to those dimensions is possible in Trek. Then there is no reason why the "Abramsverse" can co-exsist along side the "Prime" Universe just on a slightly different plain.

Yup! That pretty much lines up with the line of thought of multiple universes. The tale of "Back To The Future", while great entertainment, is not as "realistic" as the thought proposed in some tales in the world of Star Trek. If there's a change, like someone goes back in time and kills themself, that person will still continue, it's just a new time line. Mind you, this train of thought is not related to the film, because I haven't seen it yet. I'm just saying if Marty McFly's parents, due to a comedy of errors created by the time traveling McFly, never hook up, time traveling Marty will not fade from exisitance. He just exists now in a new, altered time line.

Woo...my head is getting dizzy. It's why I don't like, in general, time travel plot devices. I understand (somewhat) the physics behind it, but like Uncle Einstein, I may not like it.
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:09 PM
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No matter how much you want this movie to take place in an alternate universe, it doesn't. Alternate timeline yes. Same universe yes. It's the past revisited. The future has yet to be written for this new timeline.
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