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  #11  
Old 04-12-2009, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
How about asking HOW an amok runner kills? How about a bit of regulation of deadly things like weapons?
That's more like it.
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  #12  
Old 04-12-2009, 01:35 PM
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"Lovely, let's blame humanism, enlightment (did you know that democracy and human rights developed because of that and not because of Christianity?) and secularism for all bad things in the world. How about asking HOW an amok runner kills? How about a bit of regulation of deadly things like weapons?"

Really? Most of modern law was patterned after holy law. And you can regulate legal weapons out of existance if you want to, and the only people who it will hurt will be honest, law abiding people who wish to defend their own lives. Because those who seek to commit crime and do evil to others by their very actions say loud and clear that they do not care about the law, they have no regard of any legislation, they don't care how many restrictions you put on whatever they want. They're criminals and they are against the law, they don't mind breaking it to get what they want, to get whatever they need to continue to do evil. They'll break into a military armory and steal whatever weapons they want, the only difference is that when they come for you, you won't have any to defend yourself with, because you believe in the law, and you abide by it.
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  #13  
Old 04-12-2009, 01:38 PM
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Yeah, coz your average person who can simply get a gun over the counter to go and kill their classmates for no good reason will have the ability to break into a military armoury.
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  #14  
Old 04-12-2009, 01:39 PM
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Oh, gimme a break - really?

Trust me, you can do all those things and still be an atheist, humanist and secularist. Those who believe in God don't have a monopoly on good behaviour. Plenty of them have wound up criminals as well.
That's because they did not heed the commands of their God. People are flawed, people have always been flawed. David was flawed, he had a woman's husband murdered so he could have her, Cain was flawed, he killed his own brother, Moses slew an Egyptian. People who do not listen to God when He tells them how they should live, fail, falter, and get themselves into trouble. God didn't tell the Crusaders to march on the holy land, they decided that for themselves, and that is why they failed. If you listen to God and obey His commandments, you will grow and prosper, if you defy them, you will suffer as did David, as did Moses, as did Cain.
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  #15  
Old 04-12-2009, 01:43 PM
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Yeah, coz your average person who can simply get a gun over the counter to go and kill their classmates for no good reason will have the ability to break into a military armoury.
Perhaps not, but the person who does have that ability, has no moral qualms about selling those weapons to that average person on the street. The criminal who buys an illegal gun on the street doesn't have to fill out an A.T.F. form, doesn't have to get an instant background check through the F.B.I. like I do when I buy a gun in the legal manner.
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  #16  
Old 04-12-2009, 01:44 PM
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Again, gimme a break - Really?

I know plenty of prosperous indiviuals who have never been religious and don't even have a parking ticket to their name. Religion has nothing to do with being a decent person and contributing rather than taking from society.

And the other post merely reinforces that the focus should also be on rooting out street vendors so they can't be bought without paperwork.
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  #17  
Old 04-12-2009, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MonsieurHood View Post
"Lovely, let's blame humanism, enlightment (did you know that democracy and human rights developed because of that and not because of Christianity?) and secularism for all bad things in the world. How about asking HOW an amok runner kills? How about a bit of regulation of deadly things like weapons?"

Really? Most of modern law was patterned after holy law. And you can regulate legal weapons out of existance if you want to, and the only people who it will hurt will be honest, law abiding people who wish to defend their own lives. Because those who seek to commit crime and do evil to others by their very actions say loud and clear that they do not care about the law, they have no regard of any legislation, they don't care how many restrictions you put on whatever they want. They're criminals and they are against the law, they don't mind breaking it to get what they want, to get whatever they need to continue to do evil. They'll break into a military armory and steal whatever weapons they want, the only difference is that when they come for you, you won't have any to defend yourself with, because you believe in the law, and you abide by it.
You seriously believe that a kid who wants to run amok would break into a heavily guarded military weapon depot?
I'd have to come up with some data from more than two countries and some hard data to prove my point but some if you want some stylised facts: there are little amok runs here in Germany yet it is much harder to get a gun than in the US.
Me and everyone I know feel little need to protect themselves with a gun.

Now if I may bring in the economic aspect raised in the other thread about pirates, Germany's per capita GDP is smaller than that of the US, yet the (after tax) income inequality is smaller too, so perhaps things like gang violence (again, virtually non-existent here) might partly be caused by being poor?
Don't get me wrong, I am an economist and very well aware of the disincentive effects of taxation and redistribution, but I also have to mention its positive effects.
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  #18  
Old 04-12-2009, 01:50 PM
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there are other ways to kill then guns. Where i live i dont think there has ever been a mass killing where a teen has done all the killing because we cant buy most types of guns.
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  #19  
Old 04-12-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
You seriously believe that a kid who wants to run amok would break into a heavily guarded military weapon depot?
I'd have to come up with some data from more than two countries and some hard data to prove my point but some if you want some stylised facts: there are little amok runs here in Germany yet it is much harder to get a gun than in the US.
Me and everyone I know feel little need to protect themselves with a gun.

Now if I may bring in the economic aspect raised in the other thread about pirates, Germany's per capita GDP is smaller than that of the US, yet the (after tax) income inequality is smaller too, so perhaps things like gang violence (again, virtually non-existent here) might partly be caused by being poor?
Don't get me wrong, I am an economist and very well aware of the disincentive effects of taxation and redistribution, but I also have to mention its positive effects.
You don't know the millions of people I do, who do feel that need. And Like i said, it's the professional criminal who commits the kind of crimes that put illegal weapons on the street. He's the guy who makes the weapons available for people who wish to flaunt and disregard the law.
If a gun shop owner doesn't follow the law and make the buyer fill out the
A.T.F form and if he doesn't call the F.B.I. and tell them he's selling a weapon to Joe Ordinary, then that makes him a criminal as well. Just like those who sell cigarettes to minors when they're supposed to check I.D.s', sure, it takes longer for those kids to die of cancer, but when they do, they're still just as dead.
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  #20  
Old 04-12-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Again, gimme a break - Really?

I know plenty of prosperous indiviuals who have never been religious and don't even have a parking ticket to their name. Religion has nothing to do with being a decent person and contributing rather than taking from society.

And the other post merely reinforces that the focus should also be on rooting out street vendors so they can't be bought without paperwork.
I agree. I grew up among religious people who are more decent, caring and loving than I will ever be but there are also religious people who blow themselves up, start wars or believe that a piece of desert is their holy land (should have covered all major fundamentalists in the three Abrahamic religions).
I see no correlation between religiosity and decency (it does not matter whether you live by the Golden rule or by the Categorical Imperative) and suggest that no further allegations that atheistic or agnostic people have to be or become evil are made.
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