[Saquist]

Originally Posted by omegaman

The same can be said for TOS. Kirk over acted in most of his scenes. The inconsistencies with regard to the Vulcan mind meld technique, called by different names during the series. There has been no perfect Trek and never will be.

Certain Actors are known for they're over the top style. We even pay money to go and see them because they're entertaining. Will Smith used to be like that, Queen Latiffa, Johnny Depp, Nicholas Cage, Keanu Reeve, Linzy Lohan and yeah, WILLIAM SHATNER.

Heres the thing. Some of these actors you'll like. Other you won't but other gathered a fame on that style of over acting that it became entertaining. Shatner is also one of them. Bakula is not.

Originally Posted by ThePhaige

I absolutely agree with you, but I liked TOS , TNG , DS9 and some of Voyager all for different reasons although I think Voyager came close to the same fate as Enterprise, more so with the Techno-babble being used as cheap last minute resolutions to many of the stories. I still liked the characters, they were for the most part well acted. .

The amazing thing is that I liked Voyager even though the technobable was off the charts. Voyager actually made it good...BUT What I didn't care for was the Tech saving the Day in every episode. That's not good story writing....I can tell you right now the Last Episode of Voyager and Enterprise SUCKED on vaccuum desecrated remains of ferengi.

What awful writing and story. Unimaginative.
But at least I saw these characters one more time. I cared about them.
I didn't have a reason to care about the Enterprise Characters.

Originally Posted by horatio

The Vulcan three-parter in the fourth season explained why the 22nd century pre-reformation Vulcans are unlike their 23rd or 24th century counterparts.
It is most interesting that a show gets blamed for change and stagnation at the same time.

By the way, the general idea of ENT was that Vulcans and Humans as well as the other founding members of the Federation, Tellarites and Andorians, don't start out as friends. This theme of very different species overcoming their differences and creating the Federation would have become clearer had ENT not been cancelled.
Portraying these four species as friends from the very beginning would have been boring and unrealistic.

The Vulcan 3 parter was the worse of the Season for run to restore canon.
Good stories are thoroughly threaded, Clues are dropped and we watch the characters pick up on those clues, put them together and solve the mystery.

Just because Enterprise added, "The Mystery of the Illogical Vulcans" in Season 4 doesn't it make the story well threaded in the series it makes it a patch job. Whether a good patch job or a bad patch job you still notice a patch on your pants.

Horatio, this is why I say I didn't go for it. Conspiracy and mythicism and Archer with Suraks katra. No. that should have been T'pol...oh God she needed something intresting to do but sex up Trip, have a baby and be a pain....

[horatio]

Originally Posted by Livingston

Agreed Horatio. The point of the show was to show how TOS came about, not to clone it. It's what made the show work, unfortunately it didn't really start making it work until it's fourth season when they got cancelled.

I liked the Xindi stuff quite a bit though. It was good scifi but never really felt like Star Trek to me. It seemed like a totally different show. In that fourth season though, we were getting a good Star Trek show.

Well said, let's erase the Xindi-season for speculation's sake, make the fourth season the third one, cancel the cancellation, let the series continue based on the ideas of the fourth and now third season, make a Romulan war season instead of the Xindi-season in the sixth and/or seventh season and then end the show with the founding of the Federation. Might have turned out much better.


The main problem IMO were the fun shows with the Ferengi and the Borg which some might consider to be too reminiscent of the 24th century as well as the episodes which could have been easily done on VOY and thus had nothing specifically Enterprise-like about them.

On the other hand I recently read somewhere that Berman and Braga wanted to do unusual things like setting (parts of) the first season on Earth, probably to continue to 'first steps' of the intro and to do episodes similar to 'First Flight', yet this idea was rejected by the studio.

Once folks like Manny Coto, Mike Sussmann and the Reeves-Stevenses who were more into TOS came aboard, the show became fresh and took a nice turn.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by horatio

I understand that Combs's face becomes too familiar after the third regular major role, on the other hand, wouldn't you play it safe and recast a good actor? IMO, Shran and Archer, embodying the relationship between Humans and Andorians, were better than the queer Vulcan-Human dynamics you mentioned.

Perhaps we might agree that ENT had some good ideas but that the realization of them was disliked by more fans than any previous Trek series.

Combs is greatness no matter what role he's in.
One of my favorite characters was Question from Justice League Unlimited. Jeffery Comb's voice was unmistakable and it gave him such a real flair for the dramatic. I'd see him in a movie theatre as Question if I could...

Thats a Justice League imparative when the movie starts casting.
He's one of those actors who can be pegged as over acting. But it's somehow the right kind of over acting.

[Livingston]

Originally Posted by Saquist

The Vulcan 3 parter was the worse of the Season for run to restore canon.
Good stories are thoroughly threaded, Clues are dropped and we watch the characters pick up on those clues, put them together and solve the mystery.

Just because Enterprise added, "The Mystery of the Illogical Vulcans" in Season 4 doesn't it make the story well threaded in the series it makes it a patch job. Whether a good patch job or a bad patch job you still notice a patch on your pants.

I didn't see that 3 parter as patch work I saw it as a story arc. I have no idea if they planned it that way from Season 1 but regardless it worked for me. Romulan subversion and splinter work within the Vulcan High Command as a means of Unification explained alot and as for the Archer/Katra story; I liked it. This guy didn't buy into any of the Vulcan cultural beliefs or way of life and he not only is confronted by it, he's possessed by it. Much of that whole story reminded me quite a bit of Dune. I'd say that was somewhat of an inspiration cause there are quite a few similarities.

So one of the best written 3 parters in Trek history, no, but certainly not patchwork.

[Saquist]

If it wasn't planned then it was patch work.
They screwed up. Like I said. Good or bad you tell a patch job.

I didn't see much of these episodes period.
Let me ask you. How long were the Romulan spies involved?

[Livingston]

Originally Posted by horatio

Well said, let's erase the Xindi-season for speculation's sake, make the fourth season the third one, cancel the cancellation, let the series continue based on the ideas of the fourth and now third season, make a Romulan war season instead of the Xindi-season in the sixth and/or seventh season and then end the show with the founding of the Federation. Might have turned out much better.

You should've produced that show!

[horatio]

Originally Posted by Saquist

The Vulcan 3 parter was the worse of the Season for run to restore canon.
Good stories are thoroughly threaded, Clues are dropped and we watch the characters pick up on those clues, put them together and solve the mystery.

Just because Enterprise added, "The Mystery of the Illogical Vulcans" in Season 4 doesn't it make the story well threaded in the series it makes it a patch job. Whether a good patch job or a bad patch job you still notice a patch on your pants.

Horatio, this is why I say I didn't go for it. Conspiracy and mythicism and Archer with Suraks katra. No. that should have been T'pol...oh God she needed something intresting to do but sex up Trip, have a baby and be a pain....

Perfectly understandable, during the first seasons no one had an idea why Vulcans were so unfriendly folks. The Vulcan story in the last season is patch work, but it made the best out of the situation IMO.
I found the idea that Vulcans strayed from Surak's path since his writings were lost and since Romulans infiltrated their government a great story.
It was also a subtle way to build up the Romulan threat, emphasize the manipulative, secret service - puppet government, Romulan style and differentiate that from enemies like the Klingon who attack you openly.
What's more horrifying, a melee with a bat'leth swinging barbarian or puppet masters stringing the pulls in the dark ?

[Livingston]

Originally Posted by Saquist

If it wasn't planned then it was patch work.
They screwed up. Like I said. Good or bad you tell a patch job.

I didn't see much of these episodes period.
Let me ask you. How long were the Romulan spies involved?

Ronald Moore said the Final Five in the new BSG were not planned until half way through the third season and they were an integral part of the ending of the entire story. Just because it wasn't planned from the beginning doesn't make it 'patchwork'.

If you don't watch BSG my point won't make much sense, sorry Saq. I see what you're saying, in a way it is patching some inconsistencies but it worked for me as an arc. It didn't feel cheap.

There were several episodes that dealt with Romulan subversions in Vulcan and Andorian affairs. Basic thing was they wanted to prevent an alliance between all these races, hence a more unified front for them to have to deal with.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by Livingston

You should've produced that show!

Thanks Livingston, but I have no creative talent. Producing films is your forté.

[ThePhaige]

Actually there was much dedicated fan cryout about the way the Vulcans were evolved in Enterprise. That they were too controlling and negative. The Forge was written to calm those outcries. Much like when Worf kind of explained why Klingons had no ridges in the past. You kind of still have to fill in the blanks, and you go "ahhh thats how that happened" but it was a band aid none the less. This Story that was used to explain how Vulcans become what we know Vulcans to be is also a band aid.