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  #101  
Old 01-28-2009, 11:49 PM
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*I so totally failed to see "the ship" as the one Captained by the person being tested. My bad.*
No worries. Give my replies a re-read since this point seems to have been a miscommunication. The saved ship in question is the one being captained and tested with.

Also why I mentioned your scenario where, if real, the opponent ships would have to be completely removed in order to save the ship in distress; it had reported loss of air and failing life support. A battle would not have given time to rescue something like almost 400 people in time.

Escaping the trap alive (saving the ship) with proof of "entrapment" which was the reason for violation of the treaty is the no-win should the rescue be attempted. Not attempting the rescue is a no-win as well, due to dereliction of duty.

A test of character in either event. Sacrifice your career to "keep the peace" and possibly condemn 400 or so people to death without basic confirmation or break the treaty on a "rescue mission" only to have it be false but unable to prove it; thereby creating conditions for a possible war.

Even being able to prove it was fake might not prevent a war since it was an act of aggression designed to spark one where the opponent is seen as the injured party.
Generally speaking a pretty grim situation all around; depending on if the opposing party has to face evidence of culpability which may be flatly denied and regulated to non-sanctioned actions taken by a renegade to save face or simply admit to it openly and possibly generate a war.

Echos of a very similar no-win situation are seen with the next movie and Genesis with the attack on Grissom. Was the Grissom attack politically justified based on intercepted Genesis intelligence or not? Another character quandary as it is essentially a reversal of the same covert actions taken in Enterprise Incident where Kirk steals a Romulan cloaking device by illegally crossing the Neutral Zone. Unfortunately, the questionably justified war issue(s) just sort of fizzled out in favor of other plot elements (in both the episode and movie).

In both these cases the Federation comes off as the offending party but perhaps not as glaring enough infraction to start a war since espionage is an accepted part of governments. Even Trouble with Tribbles and verified Klingon espionage and sabotage didn't lead to outright war. Willful destruction of an "enemy" vessel without provocation is another issue.
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  #102  
Old 01-29-2009, 12:26 PM
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Wait a minute... now you've got me confused!

From TWOK, Saavik is 'commanding' the Enterprise. She receives a distress call from the KM in the Neutral Zone. Then the Klingons attack the Enterprise for breaking treaty.

The ship Kirk saved IS the Kobayashi Maru, I don't agree that he's talking about saving his own ship at all. Mainly because EVERY cadet could save his own ship on the 2nd try by simply not entering the Neutral Zone.... choose not to investigate a distress call and bingo, you pass your test! I don't think so.

From Kirk's ongoing dialogue with Saavik, I'm confident Kirk actually saved the lives on the KM *and* survived the Klingon ambush in his sim. It's a command character test of life-or-death decisions, not an exercise in espionage proving a legal basis for war against the Klingons. And this is mirrored in Kirk saving Carol and David (the Regula crew) from Khan through Kirk's tactical superiority and, yes, 'cheating' with his coded messages, etc.
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  #103  
Old 01-29-2009, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionTrek08 View Post

The ship Kirk saved IS the Kobayashi Maru, I don't agree that he's talking about saving his own ship at all. Mainly because EVERY cadet could save his own ship on the 2nd try by simply not entering the Neutral Zone.... choose not to investigate a distress call and bingo, you pass your test! I don't think so.
Hmm, somehow I don't think that Starfleet would pass a cadet for ignoring a distress call! After all, risk is all part of being a captain....
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  #104  
Old 01-29-2009, 12:48 PM
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*Mainly because EVERY cadet could save his own ship on the 2nd try by simply not entering the Neutral Zone.... choose not to investigate a distress call and bingo, you pass your test! I don't think so.*
Yeah, nor do I since it would be a violation of regulations to refuse assistance to vessels in need of aid. Auto-fail for not investigating and failure to perform duties (and probable court-martial for unsubstantiated deaths of 400 people from the flat-out refusal).
Pretty sure I laid that out explicitly, more than once.
A damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't.
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  #105  
Old 01-29-2009, 12:59 PM
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Yes, the test is not about simply choosing between a "right" choice and a "wrong" choice. It's about finding out what you would do if you simply had 2 "wrong" choices.

As a character test, simply not going to the aid of the distress call would be especially revealing. After all, I think that 3 of the most powerful words in the English language are "let me help". Which is the whole ethos of Star trek.

Or do you simply change the rules....
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  #106  
Old 01-29-2009, 01:22 PM
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To quote Captain James T. Kirk: "Risk is our business...that is why we're aboard her."
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  #107  
Old 01-29-2009, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionTrek08 View Post
Wait a minute... now you've got me confused!

From TWOK, Saavik is 'commanding' the Enterprise. She receives a distress call from the KM in the Neutral Zone. Then the Klingons attack the Enterprise for breaking treaty.

The ship Kirk saved IS the Kobayashi Maru, I don't agree that he's talking about saving his own ship at all. Mainly because EVERY cadet could save his own ship on the 2nd try by simply not entering the Neutral Zone.... choose not to investigate a distress call and bingo, you pass your test! I don't think so.

From Kirk's ongoing dialogue with Saavik, I'm confident Kirk actually saved the lives on the KM *and* survived the Klingon ambush in his sim. It's a command character test of life-or-death decisions, not an exercise in espionage proving a legal basis for war against the Klingons. And this is mirrored in Kirk saving Carol and David (the Regula crew) from Khan through Kirk's tactical superiority and, yes, 'cheating' with his coded messages, etc.
Oh, thank God...I thought it was just me having too much wine....I'd really believed that Kirk was talking about saving the Kobayashi Maru then I thought that JSnyder was stating clearly that Kirk was saving the Enterprise.

It's good to have a companion in confusion.
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  #108  
Old 01-29-2009, 09:06 PM
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*I thought that JSnyder was stating clearly that Kirk was saving the Enterprise.*
I was and still am.

*I thought it was just me having too much wine*
Is it possible to have too much wine?
More of a scotch person anymore personally, unless the tequila urge hits.
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  #109  
Old 01-29-2009, 10:40 PM
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risk is part of the game... you wanna sit in thsat chair...
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