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  #31  
Old 03-03-2009, 05:15 AM
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The Only part of that I like is the devastation of the Federation so that's now weaker and that does make the universe more interesting, but I hate that Borg origin story and the awfully predictable ending that they now want to be all peaceful. From deadly drones to peaceful drones? Doesn't that mean they are still not free individuals? If all the drones become Caelier? Shouldn't they have an 'I want to be myself' option?
Essentially what happened was that the Borg were--ironically--assimilated by the Caeliar. The malevolent Borg Collective was replaced by its progenitor, the benevolent Caeliar Gestault. Those few individuals that were able to previously escape the Collective--like Seven of Nine--were able to fully return to themselves. But those who hadn't been so fortunate became members of the Gestault. For many, they couldn't be themselves because there wasn't much of their original selves left (the Borg had taken it away).

Not every former Borg has departed with the Caeliar--after all, it's a pretty big Galaxy--but the Borg have left scars in countless billions that may never heal. In the subsequent follow-up book, A Singular Destiny, there was a report of a Starfleet team encountering a handful of survivors from a wrecked Borg ship, with one of the ex-drones a former crewmember of the Enterprise-D who was believed lost from the episode "Q Who?"
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  #32  
Old 03-03-2009, 05:31 AM
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The Only part of that I like is the devastation of the Federation so that's now weaker and that does make the universe more interesting, but I hate that Borg origin story and the awfully predictable ending that they now want to be all peaceful. From deadly drones to peaceful drones? Doesn't that mean they are still not free individuals? If all the drones become Caelier? Shouldn't they have an 'I want to be myself' option?
I agree. Sort of predictable.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:48 PM
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Essentially what happened was that the Borg were--ironically--assimilated by the Caeliar. The malevolent Borg Collective was replaced by its progenitor, the benevolent Caeliar Gestault. Those few individuals that were able to previously escape the Collective--like Seven of Nine--were able to fully return to themselves. But those who hadn't been so fortunate became members of the Gestault. For many, they couldn't be themselves because there wasn't much of their original selves left (the Borg had taken it away).
Well, that does explain it a little more fully, but I still find the neatness of the 'peaceful exploration' part just a little too...., I want to use the word 'fairytale' but I don't know if it's quite what I mean. I just think it's a little bit easy to write the Borg out of existence that way.

I don't know, I don't like it being done that way, that's all. It doesn't work for me.
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  #34  
Old 03-03-2009, 01:53 PM
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The Caeliar being who they are (and what they went through), it's logical that they would take on all those former drones...

When all is said and done, though, the Caeliar are still the ancestors to the Borg. And although the Caeliar are benevolent, they still share certain similarities.

But in many ways, Destiny was meant to be the ultimate Borg story--the Alpha and the Omega--and I couldn't have wished for a better way to get rid of TNG's elephant in the room. IMO, the Federation (and its allies) couldn't win against the Borg and they needed a more powerful third party to step in and save them...
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  #35  
Old 03-03-2009, 02:10 PM
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The Caeliar being who they are (and what they went through), it's logical that they would take on all those former drones...

When all is said and done, though, the Caeliar are still the ancestors to the Borg. And although the Caeliar are benevolent, they still share certain similarities.

But in many ways, Destiny was meant to be the ultimate Borg story--the Alpha and the Omega--and I couldn't have wished for a better way to get rid of TNG's elephant in the room. IMO, the Federation (and its allies) couldn't win against the Borg and they needed a more powerful third party to step in and save them...
It depends on what fans wanted off The Borg. I would have wanted them to be a valid danger and threat to the Federation. And in film and TV the Alpha Quadrant had been doing a good enough job of keeping them at bay. After Voyager neutered them I would have rather seen something along the lines of that threat being restored and The Federation having to keep a watchful eye on them. The Borg were a great villain to have.

And I suppose it is very TOS like for a third party to come in and save the day, but it's just personally unsatisfying.
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  #36  
Old 03-03-2009, 02:41 PM
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Fair enough. I myself wanted the Borg to go away after "I, Borg" and subsequent outings made it even worse. Their appearance in ENT was the final straw.

But perhaps the thing about the Borg was that they were too great a bad guy in the beginning. They were too powerful. They were unstoppable. Resistance was indeed futile. Every new technobabble weapon the Federation developed against them, the Borg rendered it useless almost immediately. The only way the Federation could survive in the future is if they avoided further contact with them.

I referred to the Borg as TNG's elephant, because I think they were a ticking bomb in the Star Trek universe. Eventually they would have destroyed the Federation if they ever got serious and attacked in full force, which they nearly did in Destiny. For those who say that Destiny is predictable, I think there were only two real outcomes to begin with--either the Federation survives (and Star Trek continues) or it's destroyed (and Star Trek ends and becomes Battlestar Galactica III). I'm glad it wasn't the latter...

But I also think what comes after Destiny is much more exciting--a Federation that's been weakened socially, economically, and politically that now has to deal with the emergence of the Typhon Pact.
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Old 03-03-2009, 02:51 PM
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Fair enough. I myself wanted the Borg to go away after "I, Borg" and subsequent outings made it even worse. Their appearance in ENT was the final straw.

But perhaps the thing about the Borg was that they were too great a bad guy in the beginning. They were too powerful. They were unstoppable. Resistance was indeed futile. Every new technobabble weapon the Federation developed against them, the Borg rendered it useless almost immediately. The only way the Federation could survive in the future is if they avoided further contact with them.

I referred to the Borg as TNG's elephant, because I think they were a ticking bomb in the Star Trek universe. Eventually they would have destroyed the Federation if they ever got serious and attacked in full force, which they nearly did in Destiny. For those who say that Destiny is predictable, I think there were only two real outcomes to begin with--either the Federation survives (and Star Trek continues) or it's destroyed (and Star Trek ends and becomes Battlestar Galactica III). I'm glad it wasn't the latter...

But I also think what comes after Destiny is much more exciting--a Federation that's been weakened socially, economically, and politically that now has to deal with the emergence of the Typhon Pact.
I agree on the outcomes, and part of the problem is that the first outcome was only ever going to be the one that transpired because the second (the total destruction of the Federation and humanity) was never, ever going to be done - in literature or film/TV. So, the second option was a phantom one. In a 'real' scenario, The Borg would have just sent in 20-30 cubes and then it would be game over.

So the only thing left (IMO only) is to creatively and sensibly maintain the spectre that that first option could happen, or write The Borg out of the Trekverse forever.

I think the first option could have been run a little longer.

But, certainly the notion of a smaller, weaker Federation works for me. It takes it back to a less complacent time for them.
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  #38  
Old 03-03-2009, 03:25 PM
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I agree on the outcomes, and part of the problem is that the first outcome was only ever going to be the one that transpired because the second (the total destruction of the Federation and humanity) was never, ever going to be done - in literature or film/TV. So, the second option was a phantom one. In a 'real' scenario, The Borg would have just sent in 20-30 cubes and then it would be game over.

So the only thing left (IMO only) is to creatively and sensibly maintain the spectre that that first option could happen, or write The Borg out of the Trekverse forever.
And see, that's the conclusion I think the editors of the Star Trek novels came to eventually. How many more times could they have the Borg attack the Federation and then miraculously stop short of wiping them out?
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I think the first option could have been run a little longer.
Possibly, but I think that Destiny was an opportunity for the editors to do two things at once--get rid of the Borg and set the stage for a potentially new enemy who could seriously challenge the Federation as the top dog in the Quadrant.
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But, certainly the notion of a smaller, weaker Federation works for me. It takes it back to a less complacent time for them.
Yep, things aren't quite as "perfect" in the Federation anymore. Things are little bit more rough out there now with Starfleet stretched beyond its limits and no longer having enough ships to cover all its responsibilities...
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  #39  
Old 03-04-2009, 01:39 AM
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And see, that's the conclusion I think the editors of the Star Trek novels came to eventually. How many more times could they have the Borg attack the Federation and then miraculously stop short of wiping them out?
Which is where the overuse of them (especially on TV) was a huge mistake. The Borg should always have been more carefully used.

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Possibly, but I think that Destiny was an opportunity for the editors to do two things at once--get rid of the Borg and set the stage for a potentially new enemy who could seriously challenge the Federation as the top dog in the Quadrant.

Yep, things aren't quite as "perfect" in the Federation anymore. Things are little bit more rough out there now with Starfleet stretched beyond its limits and no longer having enough ships to cover all its responsibilities...
It does sound as if it wipes out all the progress of the Federation in the 24th Century and regresses back to times similar to TOS.
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  #40  
Old 04-23-2009, 09:51 PM
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I've had to wait awhile to look for a thread on "Destiny"...usually I buy and read new Trek novels right away, but I've been so busy lately that it took me until a couple of weeks ago to get all of the books I've missed (mainly the relaunch books), and then get Destiny.

The good thing was I didn't have to wait a couple of months in between each novel....because I procrastinated I was able to read them all with no delay.

And thank God for that! I can't imagine having to wait for the next to books! Ranks with my all time best Trek novels (and I have read EVERY Trek novel).

Mack does a really good job. The fact that these are continuing stories (and yes, they are authorized, so anything that happens IS canon!) probably makes it easier for him to write as alot of the characters already have established histories.

For those who are unfamiliar with the concept of "continuing story lines", Star Wars follows this same concept. All of the books after ROTJ are considered official continuations. In other words, Lucas knows that he will not be doing a movie trilogy after Jedi, so he lets the books take over the story.

Same thing here. TNG, DS9,VOY, & ENT are not going to make it to the big screen again, so this is a way to keep their stories going.

I was impressed. I thought that some of the story lines seemed to drag on, but in retrospect I think it was necessary, and was probably due more to me wanting to get to the end!!!!

I also agree with the elephant theory. Seriously, the Borg are an enemy that will never go away. Eventually, they'll send every goddamn ship against the Federation (like they did, and probably should have done awhile ago!). Having the "third party" step in was fine with me, because over the course of the three novels, there was enough of the Caeliar story to make their involvement seem more than just a convenience.
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