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  #41  
Old 12-03-2008, 01:11 AM
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*Well, I'm sorry to see some of the thread seems to have devolved into more name calling and such.*
From me, not so much as calling out those utilizing hyperbole, hypocrisy and irrational statements.

*I only request we do it without insults, and telling people unsanitary things they can do because they disagree.*
Well I can say that no single person was targeted for insult on my part. On "unsanitary things they can do" you must be referring to someone's deleted or altered posting.

*There is no "other" trying to "win" the argument.*
There I will flat-out disagree with you.
Else there would be no such arguments on a board and section devoted to The New Movie. What the hope of accomplishment from this is unknown other than to vent upon and splinter further the vaunted hard core fan base.

As for long-time fans, sure I can loosely account myself as among that group. I've watched it on and off through the years and I ain't impressed.
I want to be impressed. I think JJ and a new direction can make it happen.

That does not equate to throwing out the baby with the dirty bathwater... merely putting new bathwater in the tub and rewashing the baby because that 40 year old bathwater was pretty icky.

*Changing the ship to look like an anachronistic abomination won't bring new people to the theater.*
Your artistic opinion aside, if you open a new business, having a sign say "Grand Re-Opening: Under New Management - Completely Renovated!" is kind of a clue to your demographic and will grab interest even on the fringe simply out of mild curiosity.

The hope is that you don't continue to only obtain and retain the same few customers who drove the business into the ground in the first place.

Again, just calling out the irrational and such.
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  #42  
Old 12-03-2008, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
You know.....a Wife that makes a commitment to her husband for 40 years year and then says'

"I don't feel like making you happy any more" is a pretty awful person. Marriage is forever...and that's what you buy into. If Paramount wants it's fan base to stick around how bout a little reciprical appreciation?
Well, after 40 years, the longest fans will (eventually, but not for a while yet!) start to depart this Earth, and if Paramount can't replace them with new fans, the base shrinks even further and then there's even less chance of a series or film because people start to go 'What was Star Trek?'

It's already been nearly 4 years since the last series ended, and it will be 6 and a half years since the last film, which is more than enough time to bleed off some (but obviously not all) of the more casual fanbase, especially given the already declining interest at that point. Paramount really can't be blamed for looking to the future and though everyone is free to agree or disagree with the results of their attempt, it is a business they want to continue to make money from.

Last edited by kevin : 12-03-2008 at 02:15 AM.
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  #43  
Old 12-03-2008, 06:20 AM
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I blame them for betraying the concept. I blame them for there methods of revitalizing. I blame them for machine washing hand wash only cotton blouses.....

There are other ways to accomplish this goal of rejuvenation. Screwing Trek is not a good way. Make trek smart intresting..and add action and suspense. No ones saying Trek can't be an action junky film...no ones saying it's can't be like borne supremacy or mission impossible III. I'm one of the ones that think it should be...

But to turn Trek into Charles's Angels or the NEW Knight Rider...Is awful....
I don't know yet that it has but it would seem there is some of that in this film.
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  #44  
Old 12-03-2008, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by JSnyder4 View Post
As for long-time fans, sure I can loosely account myself as among that group. I've watched it on and off through the years and I ain't impressed.
To paraphrase Commodore Decker: "No...No I don't suppose that you are."


Quote:
*Changing the ship to look like an anachronistic abomination won't bring new people to the theater.*
Quote:
Your artistic opinion aside, if you open a new business, having a sign say "Grand Re-Opening: Under New Management - Completely Renovated!" is kind of a clue to your demographic and will grab interest even on the fringe simply out of mild curiosity.

The hope is that you don't continue to only obtain and retain the same few customers who drove the business into the ground in the first place.

Again, just calling out the irrational and such.
I've been going to this really great steak house for decades. I LOVE a good steak and a baked potato. One day it closes for renovation. After six months it reopens with new management but still the same name over the door.

I go in eager to see the improvements and to get that steak I've REALLY been craving for a while. I sit down and I look at the menu and I can't find my steak listed so I ask the waiter and he says."Oh! That doesn't interest our new hip and with it crowd that we're going to bring in. That's why we have Tofu Burgers and Alfalfa sprouts on the menu."

I stare at him in disbelief. "This is a Steakhouse for crying out loud!" I say.

He looks at me in confusion over my response. "Oh very well if you MUST then we have a Steak Fajita on the menu..."

Steak Fajita????

Look... It may be good. I'll even try it. But my money spends just as well as the other folks money. Why should I be stared at like a criminal or a nutcase because I expected to find Steak in the same place I've been going faithfully all these years?

Expand the menu but DON'T give your old customers dirty looks when they opine that they would have preferred some of their old favorites were still on it.
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  #45  
Old 12-03-2008, 07:29 AM
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Star Trek is like sex...which in turn is like pizza.

When it's good...it's really good.
When it's bad....it's still pretty good.
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  #46  
Old 12-03-2008, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Wagon Train View Post
Alright, now that the ridiculously grandiose thread title has attracted at least 2 eyes, maybe 2 pairs if I'm lucky,
The question is, has it attracted any brains?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagon Train
I simply wanted to offer a point of discussion that can maybe help bridge the gap between those who have legitimate concerns on the straying/changing of canon elements, and those who are ready for a new final frontier as it were.
I pray thee luck. Blessed are the peacemakers, for surely they will catch hell from BOTH sides. This is a lesson I learned the hard way during the Battlestar Galactica fan wars.
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  #47  
Old 12-03-2008, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JSnyder4
The hope is that you don't continue to only obtain and retain the same few customers who drove the business into the ground in the first place.
Customers don't drive a business into the ground, bad business decisions from the Management do. This reminds me of the hip, beret-wearing poet type working at your local coffee joint. I'm not making this guy up, this is a real person I met. Claimed his art studio went under because people are just too stupid to "get" his art. I politely pointed out that perhaps the problem wasn't people, but rather that he wasn't selling anything people wanted. After all (based on one of the pieces hanging behind the counter at Mill's End Coffee) not too many people want a weird, distorted portrait of a woman with vaginas where her eyes are supposed to be. Not the sort of thing you hang in the front room, and I have no idea how he got away with hanging it up where he works, except possibly that no one could tell what he'd painted.

You don't pander to your customers. At the same time, if you want to retain your customers, you don't go out of your way to metaphorically slap them in the face, either. Paramount has the reins to Star Trek, well that's for good and ill. They get to drive it into the ground, but they also have to take responsibility for that. Viewers leave when the show sucks. Enterprise, therefore, sucked. People won't show up for the next movie when the last movie sucked. Insurrection and Nemesis, based on the results, apparently also sucked. We'll see what happens after Abrams' first outing.
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  #48  
Old 12-03-2008, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
Star Trek is like sex...which in turn is like pizza.

When it's good...it's really good.
When it's bad....it's still pretty good.
Indeed.

How on earth does Paramount "owe" us anything? They make a product for mass consumption and then we choose whether or not to consume it. Subaru does not "owe" me anything because I chose to buy an Outback. Can you imagine me showing up at their headquarters and flipping out because they changed the layout of the dashboard in the '09 models? "I BOUGHT ONE OF YOUR CARS AND LIKED IT SO YOU CAN NEVER EVER EVER CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT IT." WTF? After they laughed me out the door, they'd lock me up in the Japanese equivalent to the loony bin.

This canon stuff is getting creepily close to the whole LRHubbard Dianetics stuff.
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  #49  
Old 12-03-2008, 09:32 AM
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You don't like my canon?
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  #50  
Old 12-03-2008, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
Customers don't drive a business into the ground, bad business decisions from the Management do. This reminds me of the hip, beret-wearing poet type working at your local coffee joint. I'm not making this guy up, this is a real person I met. Claimed his art studio went under because people are just too stupid to "get" his art. I politely pointed out that perhaps the problem wasn't people, but rather that he wasn't selling anything people wanted. After all (based on one of the pieces hanging behind the counter at Mill's End Coffee) not too many people want a weird, distorted portrait of a woman with vaginas where her eyes are supposed to be. Not the sort of thing you hang in the front room, and I have no idea how he got away with hanging it up where he works, except possibly that no one could tell what he'd painted.

You don't pander to your customers. At the same time, if you want to retain your customers, you don't go out of your way to metaphorically slap them in the face, either. Paramount has the reins to Star Trek, well that's for good and ill. They get to drive it into the ground, but they also have to take responsibility for that. Viewers leave when the show sucks. Enterprise, therefore, sucked. People won't show up for the next movie when the last movie sucked. Insurrection and Nemesis, based on the results, apparently also sucked. We'll see what happens after Abrams' first outing.
If Paramount doesn't get the results thay are looking for, I think there's no doubt they will take responsibility for it, and put it aside again.
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