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Old 12-02-2008, 12:38 AM
Wagon Train Wagon Train is offline
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Default I come as an Emissary to canonistas and revisionists...

Alright, now that the ridiculously grandiose thread title has attracted at least 2 eyes, maybe 2 pairs if I'm lucky, I simply wanted to offer a point of discussion that can maybe help bridge the gap between those who have legitimate concerns on the straying/changing of canon elements, and those who are ready for a new final frontier as it were.

I'd like to see what this community thinks of the following concept:

I'm putting the sheild up in the 1-in-1 billion chance I'm right in anyway.

Any thoughts? I only ask we keep it civil, and no insults are given to anyone's opinions on the topic no matter where we fall on the spectrum.

I'm loaded with Trek lore, but I'm excited to see what's in store. Other's want to get as far away from 1964 and foam rocks as possible, understandably, and others want to see JJ and crew follow the 'rules' established in stories already told by Gene and his progeny, also understandably.


I'm just doing this to see if, were my guess on this progression to be true, it would satisfy members of both sides on this sticking point.
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:48 AM
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Without breaking your spoiler tag too much:

Even assuming the Kelvin was destroyed by weapons built in the future, it doesn't necessarily follow that the data gleaned from the Kelvin's "black box" will provide enough information for Starfleet engineers to understand the technology behind those weapons, let alone lead to Starfleet engineers devising countermeasures. It further then does not follow that a Constitution class ship would need a configuration which deviates from the original in order to incorporate those countermeasures. Some will argue -- as many have -- that the configuration of the new ship is no different from the configuration of the original, i.e. saucer, neck, secondary hull, pylons, nacelles. Up to a point, that's true. But as I've also argued, all iterations of the Enterprise (barring NX-01) have that configuration, and that doesn't make the designs identical. The 1701 we're seeing in this film is not a Constitution class design. Okay, not the design originally referred to as Constitution-class. (Ha! Headed you off at the pass! Yeah, you in the back! You were about to say "It's Constitution-class if they say it is!" Weren't you? Yeah, I got your number! :P )
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Old 12-02-2008, 01:04 AM
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My thoughts exactly, WT. IMHO, this is the one and only way for everyone to be happy with what JJ has wrought. I've had this theory for some time, just haven't posted it yet (I'm fairly new to the forum.) I don't know if it's been mentioned in any other thread, but I'm glad I finally found someone else with the same idea. For me, it's the only thing that completely justifies the inclusion of yet another time-travel plotline. I actually thought the "Temporal Cold War" subplot in Enterprise was going to be used in the same way to explain some of the little inconsistencies there.
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Old 12-02-2008, 01:11 AM
Wagon Train Wagon Train is offline
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Saint, I'm not thinking of the design change as incorporating countermeasures, actually. I'm thinking of the visual change in proportions/style, for example, as simply a factor of the "A.N.B.E." and how it will take everything "out of kilter" as you move forward from that point.

Less "Wow, we went through that and we have to build this" and more "Well, I was going to build this (1964 TOS E), but I suddenly had a new idea to tweak it like this (2008 JJ E)"

That would mean it would also come to be titled "Constitution" Class by the Federation, but it would be an ANBE-Constitution, if I'm making my point well enough.

It recognizes that they aren't the same vessel, but they are the "same ship".

It's like Geordi: "It's like...I'm there, but I'm not!!111"

What in the Husnock is ANBE? Check here if you've read the spoiler at the start of the thread.
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Old 12-02-2008, 01:44 AM
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Your above spoiler tag won't open for me, so I'm not seeing what A.N.B.E. stands for. However, one thing you may have miscalculated -- or perhaps not -- is the time it would take to get the Constitution-class from design sketches to completion. Not the Enterprise herself, but -- and this is an assumption, because we don't yet know what all has been jettisoned, what's been kept and what's transitioned from fanon to canon, which may occur in this film. Typically, a class of ship is named after the first vessel constructed in the class, which would be the U.S.S. Constitution. Maybe you see where I'm going with this. If the Constitution was already completed when the Kelvin is destroyed -- or if even the design is finalized when the Kelvin is destroyed -- then your theory won't fit.
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Old 12-02-2008, 02:45 AM
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I'm personally not really a fan of the idea of placing the film in an alternate reality, unless that is confirmed in the final film, but certainly some people prefer to do this so, at the end of the day to each their own.

But I think Saint has some points that even if a future ship came back, I'm not sure how it would sufficiently alter 23rd Century technology in the ways mentioned. If Nero does com back in time more than once, then he escaped the Kelvin the first time, so we don't know if he left anything behind except her wreckage and some survivors.
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Old 12-02-2008, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
I'm personally not really a fan of the idea of placing the film in an alternate reality, unless that is confirmed in the final film, but certainly some people prefer to do this so, at the end of the day to each their own.

But I think Saint has some points that even if a future ship came back, I'm not sure how it would sufficiently alter 23rd Century technology in the ways mentioned. If Nero does com back in time more than once, then he escaped the Kelvin the first time, so we don't know if he left anything behind except her wreckage and some survivors.
I'm getting tired of those alterantive TRek movies. I say- let JJ do what he wants to do with the film. if he wants to throw canomn out the door, and you're not a supporter of tht, thats just fine. but soon, a bigger, newer fanbase will enter, and that means more films. so, i say with all due respect, deal with it. this is the new trek, and it most likely will be the new trek for about 20 ( I hope) Years!
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Old 12-02-2008, 03:50 AM
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K, I'm gonna have to play devil's advocate here. Nero going back in time and introducing new weaponry and technology to an earlier people does not explain the Enterprise look. According to this movie, that's the way the Enterprise was planning to look way before Nero decided to crash the party.

Let's just face the truth here, Abrams decided to beef up the Enterprise.

And bringing it back, The Saint, it is Constitution class if the official creators and producers of the Star Trek franchise say it is. You're not going to stop me from saying that. I get into it with every franchise addition, whenever someone says "this is not canon", it is if the people officialy involved say it is. "Indiana Jones 4" is still Indiana Jones, even if people think it sucked. The "Star Wars" prequels are officialy part of Star Wars canon because George Lucas made it so. The last three "Dark Tower" books are part of official Dark Tower canon because Stephen King wrote them as such. This "Star Trek XI" is officialy part of Star Trek canon because it's officially made so by Paramount and the people involved.
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Last edited by MigueldaRican : 12-02-2008 at 03:58 AM.
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  #9  
Old 12-02-2008, 04:32 AM
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I say those who have made up their mind will keep saying it, Its upto JJ to prove them wrong.............................................
which he definitely not!

Net effect, all Trekkies will continue watching trek and maybe some new fans will come and there by new series may be planned which can have all the great sci fi they want with all the canon they desire Win-win!
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  #10  
Old 12-02-2008, 04:51 AM
Thascales Thascales is offline
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Nero arrives in the past some twenty, twenty-five years before the Enterprise is launched, presumably still the second Constitution-class ship. Allowing five years as a conservative estimate to build a Connie, that still leaves a comfortable ten to fifteen years after Nero's incursion to design it. I suspect that with 23rd-century CAD, that would be more than long enough for any technology - obtained from future-debris, or given to us discreetly by future-Spock, or any other explanation - to be toyed with and incorporated into the design. No wonder the Constitution-class looks so much more advanced than we're used to, it's the first class of Starfleet ship that incorporates 25th century technology into its design.
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