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Old 11-22-2008, 09:52 AM
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MigueldaRican MigueldaRican is offline
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Default CANON! This thread is canon and negates all other threads

I'm kidding of course. I was going to call this thread "Spock is a woman! McCoy dies! And Kirk is the Roswell alien!" which would be serious canon screw ups, everyone can agree, but not Abrams is going that far.

Is this another thread dealing with canon? Yeah. Are there people going to come in here telling me I'm an idiot for posting another thread about canon when I could have added to another thread already? Sure. Will I care? I'll leave it unanswered.

The reason why I started a whole new thread is because basically I have something to say and it'll be the same thing I'd end up posting in all the threads. So... I'm taking the lazy way out and replying to all those threads with one new one.

Is Canon Important?

Yes, it is. I agree to this. I'm a hardcore Star Trek fan. So yes, I hold Star Trek universe sacred.

But what canon is important? Which part? I agree that even the details are important. But within the Star Trek canon even before this new movie, there are inconsistencies. What stays intact is the main ideals and characters as introduced by Gene Roddenberry. Which brings me to...

"Abrams is throwing canon out the window!"

Really? Again this is where I say "So does Spock ending up undergoing an operation to change genders?" Yada yada. I think it's safe to say that Abrams is still making this about Star Trek, the main characters, especially the early stages of the friendship trio of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy.

Comments about Abrams not giving 2 fraks about Star Trek canon is grossly overexaggerated.

I think the reason people are getting on Abrams case is because really he is new blood to this franchise. But criticizing that is a little hypocritical. After all, and I can't remember which movie, but I recall one of the movies or more have featured "new blood" in the director's chair. I have the special edition dvds and watched the bonus features. I can recall a director or two being revealed as having never seen Star Trek prior to being asked to direct a certain film!!!

But fans holding accountable the people who are in charge of their respective franchise has increased in ways that would scare a rabid dog. After Peter Jackson's LotR revisioning, and him revealing how much of a devote "Ringer" he is, that idea has pretty much ruined it. Now if anyone any less than a Trekkie is brought on to any Trek projects, many of you hit the roof at max velocities.

Seriously, lighten the hell up!

Star Trek Canon Inconsistencies That Exist Before Star Trek XI

I'll need someone's help on this. I tried finding actual lists online, and got close, but they were deleted a long time ago.

But I have seen articles that say Star Trek canon is littered with inconsistencies.

Is it James R. Kirk?

When did Khan meet Chekhov?

And let's not get started on the Klingon foreheads. Yeah "they evolved". Yeah, let's go with that one.

As far as how important canon is, don't take my word for it:

Gene Roddenberry and the Confusing Game of Revision

I have this in my signature, but here's the whole quote from Paula Block, VCP Senior Director of Licensed Publishing. I'll highlight some things:

Quote:
Another thing that makes canon a little confusing. Gene R. himself had a habit of decanonizing things. He didn't like the way the animated series turned out, so he proclaimed that it was not canon. He also didn't like a lot of the movies. So he didn't much consider them canon either. And – okay, I'm really going to scare you with this one – after he got TNG going, he... well... he sort of decided that some of The Original Series wasn't canon either. I had a discussion with him once, where I cited a couple things that were very clearly canon in The Original Series, and he told me he didn't think that way anymore, and that he now thought of TNG as canon wherever there was conflict between the two. He admitted it was revisionist thinking, but so be it.
Revisionist thinking. Hmm.

Alright, so first of all, he didn't much like a lot of the movies? I'm not sure which ones, and I had trouble finding the specifics on this.

That being said, until we can find a clear answer, it looks like... none of the movies are safe... Movies that brought in a lot of Trekkies and made them what they are.

And what's this? Some of the original series isn't canon either? If it conflicted with TNG Gene actually said that the new stuff was canon and negated the old stuff! What!

This is revionist thinking.

So Gene R. made revisionist thinking an official part of Star Trek.

But wait. A canonite can easily say, "yes, but only his revisions. Only what Roddenberry wrote is true canon."

So that means everything after Roddenberry died is not canon. This includes First Contact, a movie that most Trek fans believe to be one of the best if not the best Trek movie.

Heck, I'm ready for a canonite to come in here and say, "Yes. That's right." But... that would be a change of ideas, since most Trekkies accept First Contact as official canon. Now you're going to ask that it not be?

Not including the fact that this would also negate any material Gene didn't like... like the other movies before he died.

The idea that only Roddenberry approved material is canon actually goes against what Roddenberry himself wanted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Roddenberry, [I
Los Angeles Times TV Times[/i], article "Star Trek's New Frontier", 1993]"There's a good chance that when I'm gone, others will come along and do so well that people will say, 'Oh, that Roddenberry. He was never this good.' But I will be pleased with that statement."
Roddenberry took revisionist thinking when dealing with canon. Other people producers and directors also took revisionist thinking.

What's intact? The main characters and personalities created by Roddenberry. The returning plot theme, "brave new worlds and new civilizations". Even details still remain, though Abrams is taking liberties with some other details. And why shouldn't we forgive him this apparent sin that everyone involved with Star Trek has been guilty of?
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:24 AM
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My personal definition of Trek canon? Every detail which remained unchanged the longest.

Yes, it was James R. Kirk -- for what, one episode early on?

Yes, it was "United Earth Space Probe Agency" -- until it was called Starfleet, which it was then called for every episode and film after that, although the earlier name also reappeared much later under the role of a different agency. In-universe explanation? Starfleet and the U.E.S.P.A. were two separate organizations that each held a different degree (and perhaps area) of oversight in starship operations. Kind of like a U.S. Naval vessel operating in a U.N. taskforce. Enterprise was under Earth oversight as well as Federation Starfleet oversight.

As far as Chekov goes -- that's what happens when someone who doesn't know the source material intimately helms something based on that material. That doesn't justify somebody else coming along and doing the same later.
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:34 AM
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But, by your own personal definition, you make allowance for the changing of established canon.

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction?
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:34 AM
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Kirk even called Starfleet 'Starfleet Control' (I believe in Tomorrow is Yesterday) before he called it 'Starfleet Command'...

Of course - it could represent 2 different sections...
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedShirtWalking View Post
But, by your own personal definition, you make allowance for the changing of established canon.

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction?
Speaking for myself and not the author of the post in question, I don't think so. Every show has to get it's "sea legs", so to speak. Star Trek had a breaking-in period as well before it hit it's groove. It's important events like the first Romulan War, the Balance Of Terror battle, the Organian Peace Treaty, and the Enterprise Incident, among other things, that I hope remain part of the Star Trek picture.
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:55 AM
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The bridge of the Klingon BoP between ST 3 and 4.

Savik---'nough said.

The phaser redesign between 2 and 3 which supposedly happen within days of each other.

The excessive battle damage applied to Enterprise upon return to space dock that wasn't there at the end of Khan.

Joaquim being an older man in the TV series and being a young man in ST2.

The lack of regulation on how strong the weapons really are, phasers and torpedos do the damage needed for the story line.

The list goes on and on for the movies, the tv series, etc. It was a work in progress that got better over time. Budgets changed; what they were able to do with the film was way different than 10 years prior with a weekly TV show. Imagine if Star Wars was made today instead of 1977, the creator always wants to go back and do things different, but we have what we have.

The characters are there, the ship is there, let's just sit back and enjoy the entertainment value. I have said it before, Gene's Star Trek is dead, respect that.
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Old 11-22-2008, 11:31 AM
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This is an article taken from the statrek.com.
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07.10.2003
How do the Star Trek novels and comic books fit into the Star Trek universe? What is considered Star Trek "canon"?

As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live-action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, video games, the Animated Series, and the various comic lines have traditionally not been considered part of the canon. But canon is not something set in stone; even events in some of the movies have been called into question as to whether they should be considered canon! Ultimately, the fans, the writers and the producers may all differ on what is considered canon and the very idea of what is canon has become more fluid, especially as there isn't a single voice or arbiter to decide. Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry was accustomed to making statements about canon, but even he was known to change his mind.

In the publishing world, there used to be two exceptions to the novel rule: the Jeri Taylor- penned books "Mosaic" and "Pathways." Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters and were to be considered as references by writers on the show. Now that the show is over, some of those events may never be incorporated into a live action format, so the question of whether details from these novels remain canon is open to interpretation.

With regard to the Animated Series, there are a few details from the episode "Yesteryear," written by D.C. Fontana, that reveal biographical background on Spock and planet Vulcan. Details from this episode have been successfully incorporated into the canon ofStar Trek (such as in "The Forge")and now that the Animated Series is out on DVD, we hope that even more can make its way in!

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Old 11-22-2008, 11:37 AM
VeridianIII VeridianIII is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justafan View Post
The characters are there, the ship is there, let's just sit back and enjoy the entertainment value. I have said it before, Gene's Star Trek is dead, respect that.

No, if it is dead then leave it be. Don't use Star trek to launch a movie that could easily be called something else. No one said it would be easy to please the fans. I hope Mr Abrams makes this a good Star Trek film and takes Star Trek in a direction respectful of all that have come before.
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Old 11-22-2008, 02:10 PM
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I can only say that to me, the author of this post PERFECTLY demonstrated my opinion of canon. I agree with every word he said, and I support his ideas 100%.
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:05 AM
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Because canon is still a raging battle (it shouldn't be, and know I didn't think this thread would stop it, I'm not that conceited), I decided to bump this thread. But with substance rather than just say "bump". Here's another quote about canon from the Richard Arnold:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arnold, [I
Star Trek: The Next Generation[/i] research consultant and Star Trek archivist, 1991 interview with Tim Lynch]
See, people can easily catch us, and say "well, wait a minute, in 'Balance of Terror', they knew that the Romulans had a cloaking device, and then in 'The Enterprise Incident', they don't know anything about cloaking devices, but they're gonna steal this one because it's obviously just been developed, so how the hell do you explain that?" We can't. There are some things we just can't explain, especially when it comes from the third season. So, yes, third season is canon up to the point of contradiction, or where it's just so bad... you know, we kind of cringe when people ask us, "well, what happened in 'Plato's Stepchildren', and 'And the Children Shall Lead', and 'Spock's Brain', and so on — it's like, please, he wasn't even producing it at that point. But, generally, [canon is] the original series, not really the animated, the first movie to a certain extent, the rest of the films in certain aspects but not in all... I know that it's very difficult to understand. It literally is point by point. I sometimes do not know how he's going to answer a question when I go into his office, I really do not always know, and — and I know it better probably than anybody, what it is that Gene likes and doesn't like.
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