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  #21  
Old 11-21-2008, 11:26 AM
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All the examples posted above are poor. In every case Kirk bent the rules, and was never really punished. He was never as much a rebel as the new movie seems to paint him. Kirk played by the rules much more often than not.
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:31 AM
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Being vindicated in the end does NOT remove the rebel aspect of Kirk's actions. He rebels against authority. Get it? Just because he ends up being right does not mean he did NOT rebel in the first place.
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:31 AM
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One must be punished in order to be rebel? JBElliot, you are out there!!!!
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  #24  
Old 11-21-2008, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MrQ1701 View Post
One must be punished in order to be rebel? JBElliot, you are out there!!!!
MrQ170, no one doesn't have to be punished to be a rebel, but one must actually rebel to be a rebel. Kirk doesn't rebel, though he does bend the rules.

If Kirk was a rebel, he would have let Riley kill Kodos or done it himself. But Kirk stopped Riley, thus proving, again, that he's no rebel.
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MrQ1701 View Post
Being vindicated in the end does NOT remove the rebel aspect of Kirk's actions. He rebels against authority. Get it? Just because he ends up being right does not mean he did NOT rebel in the first place.
He didn't rebel against authority. He did what he thought was correct (and which indeed was correct as evidenced by his later vindication), that is he did things according to the rules as he interpreted them. And Kirk's interpretations of the rules were always correct. Thus there was no rebellion in any of his actions.
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:51 AM
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Sorry, but now you're ignoring the facts of these examples to suit your point. Any officer who gets busted DOWN in rank is punished, period.

Any officer who disobeys direct orders from superiors is both rebellious and showing blatant disregard for authority. I think you're attempting to confuse rebel with martyr, implying that only some dire capital punishment would prove his rebellion against authority. That's simply not the case.

Or did you expect Starfleet to execute Kirk after he saved the planet?

You asked for proof and said none existed. The proof has been given to you -- there's little point in pretending it now doesn't exist by changing the definitions of words.
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  #27  
Old 11-21-2008, 11:53 AM
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Doing the right thing and following the rules are not always one and the same. Kirk always tries to do the right thing, but doesn't always follow the rules to get there.
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  #28  
Old 11-21-2008, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JBElliott View Post
Okay then, point out TOS episodes where Kirk was a "reckless adventurer".
Bedding a girl almost every episode(implied never seen though), fighting a lot of baddies barehanded and alone, climbing a rock face with no safety harness, Hijacking mulitiple starships for personal business.
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  #29  
Old 11-21-2008, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBElliott View Post
MrQ170, no one doesn't have to be punished to be a rebel, but one must actually rebel to be a rebel. Kirk doesn't rebel, though he does bend the rules.

If Kirk was a rebel, he would have let Riley kill Kodos or done it himself. But Kirk stopped Riley, thus proving, again, that he's no rebel.
Doesn't that example just mean that he's not a murderer? Just because he had a rebellious streak doesn't mean he didn't have a clear concept between right and wrong.

For what it's worth, in my opinion nobody could have accused Kirk of being by the book. Just because he's usually vindicated in the end doesn't negate his initial impulsive (should I say rebellious) decisions that he sometimes took to "bend the rules".
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  #30  
Old 11-21-2008, 12:05 PM
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By JBElliot's reasoning, it would seem that Kirk and Picard aren't that different. Picard also bends rules sometimes and almost never got in serious trouble for it.

And it is clear to just about everybody that Kirk and Picard are WAAAAAY different from each other.

There was this one scene in First Contact though, right before the Enterprise E engages the Borg, that is remeniscent of the ending scene from The Undiscovered Country.

"I think I speak for all of us sir, when I say...to HELL with our orders." - Data

Put a smile on my face the first day I saw it.

Being a rebel doesn't mean you have to be an immoral scumbag and it doesn't mean that your superiors are supposed to always be rough with you if you do break the rules.
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