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  #21  
Old 01-31-2008, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by paulpaz View Post
That might be true in another film, but since Trek has a message and ethic JJ needs to observe that. what he has done to date does not inspire confidence since the majority of his action/drama features apologetic torture.
"Trek has a message"? Oh, please. Only the arrogance of fans would have Star Trek put on a pedestal as the guiding light of the world morality.

Trek may be a morality play but the fact is that it has not always gotten things right and in my view the show is best when it gets the audience to think about different things rather than forcing them to accept a single point of view. If you really believe in the Star Trek "message" then surely you believe in an individuals freedom on expression.
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  #22  
Old 01-31-2008, 12:37 AM
BradM73 BradM73 is offline
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I hate to think that the human race is still capable of torture and war and a lot of other bad things. I hate to think of torturing people either. The current debate about waterboarding is absolutely rediculous. I don't know of a single person who's died from waterboarding, or who has suffered any long-lasting effects from it, aside from the memory of the uncomfortable experience.

Ethics aside, there are indeed times when torture is warranted or is justifiable. Take this scenario as case and point. What if your child had been kidnapped, and the person responsible for their kidnapping was being held by police, and there was undisputable video evidence showing he kidnapped your child. Knowing that your child's life was on the line, and knowing that the kidnapper isn't talking, what would you do if you were alone with the kidnapper for 10 minutes?

It is a well known fact that police in the US and other countries have relied on certain torture methods to save lives. Is it justified? I guess that depends on if you want to see your child again or not.

That being said, are there times when torture is not justified? Sure, I'll not dispute that, but having the option in certain circumstances seems logical to me.

As far as thinking J.J. will add torture into the movie is anyone's guess, though I do consider it a bit ignorant to assume he will based on the content in Alias (a CIA espionage thriller series) and Lost (people trapped on an island trying to escape the evil Others). The content of those shows directly deals with the topic of torture and what people are capable of when human nature calls. Whether you personally condone torture or not is irrelevant. Either way it's merely a story, and if torture is part of that story, then so be it.

All of that being said, I don't forsee Abrams going after a torture based story line, but at this point, who really knows. Once we have more concrete evidence of what the final script is, let's not jump to conclusions. Even though I am personally not a fan of torture in most cases, it almost seems to me that you're on a witch hunt. That's just how I see it.
  #23  
Old 01-31-2008, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightwatch View Post
If Abrams/Oric/Kutzmann intend to use toture they should stick with it. Regardless of the way it is presented. We saw both - justification and condemnation - in Star Trek. The clear mesage and ethic of Trek is long gone. Starting with DS9.
There were some dark issues in DS9, but it did not betray the vision of Gene and Star Trek. You are wrong. Watch the clips on the site for proof. And Voyager certainly dealt with strong ethical issues time and again.
  #24  
Old 01-31-2008, 12:39 AM
paulpaz paulpaz is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiana Jones View Post
"Trek has a message"? Oh, please. Only the arrogance of fans would have Star Trek put on a pedestal as the guiding light of the world morality.

Trek may be a morality play but the fact is that it has not always gotten things right and in my view the show is best when it gets the audience to think about different things rather than forcing them to accept a single point of view. If you really believe in the Star Trek "message" then surely you believe in an individuals freedom on expression.
That's right. And I also believe there are some fundamental issues Trek had messages about over and over. Racism is one very clear one. Respect for human rights and ethics is another - the prime directive itself is a key to that. If you think that message is not in Star Trek I suggest you watch all the series over again.
  #25  
Old 01-31-2008, 12:44 AM
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I don't need to, I've already seen every episode of Alias and Lost to date. Every torture scene is always making a sense. Its neither justified or glorified, but indented to add depth to the characters portrait.
  #26  
Old 01-31-2008, 12:44 AM
paulpaz paulpaz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradM73 View Post
I hate to think that the human race is still capable of torture and war and a lot of other bad things. I hate to think of torturing people either. The current debate about waterboarding is absolutely rediculous. I don't know of a single person who's died from waterboarding, or who has suffered any long-lasting effects from it, aside from the memory of the uncomfortable experience.

Ethics aside, there are indeed times when torture is warranted or is justifiable. Take this scenario as case and point. What if your child had been kidnapped, and the person responsible for their kidnapping was being held by police, and there was undisputable video evidence showing he kidnapped your child. Knowing that your child's life was on the line, and knowing that the kidnapper isn't talking, what would you do if you were alone with the kidnapper for 10 minutes?

It is a well known fact that police in the US and other countries have relied on certain torture methods to save lives. Is it justified? I guess that depends on if you want to see your child again or not.

That being said, are there times when torture is not justified? Sure, I'll not dispute that, but having the option in certain circumstances seems logical to me.

As far as thinking J.J. will add torture into the movie is anyone's guess, though I do consider it a bit ignorant to assume he will based on the content in Alias (a CIA espionage thriller series) and Lost (people trapped on an island trying to escape the evil Others). The content of those shows directly deals with the topic of torture and what people are capable of when human nature calls. Whether you personally condone torture or not is irrelevant. Either way it's merely a story, and if torture is part of that story, then so be it.

All of that being said, I don't forsee Abrams going after a torture based story line, but at this point, who really knows. Once we have more concrete evidence of what the final script is, let's not jump to conclusions. Even though I am personally not a fan of torture in most cases, it almost seems to me that you're on a witch hunt. That's just how I see it.
I am sure the North Vietnamese thought it was justified to torture my uncle for seven years. It was not. It never uis, and you are dead wrong about its effectiveness. I have been working in human rights for close to 15 years and worked with many government officials, military, police and torture survivors. I am much closer to the reality of torture and your scenario is nowhere near it. Police in other countries do torture. They also terrorize and arrest innocent people for their race, ethnicity, religion, etc. If your thoughts on the issue are so antiquated and disrespectful of basic human rights then I think the message of Star Trek is probably lost on you.
  #27  
Old 01-31-2008, 12:47 AM
paulpaz paulpaz is offline
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Originally Posted by St. Martyne View Post
I don't need to, I've already seen every episode of Alias and Lost to date. Every torture scene is always making a sense. Its neither justified or glorified, but indented to add depth to the characters portrait.
then you don't understand what "justification" for torture is. Torture is used commonly, by "heroic" and non-flawed characters - like Sydney and it is used to get information and sometimes simply for vengeance. That is portraying it as a justifiable and practical method. Which it is not. Sorry, but you are not grasping the issue. There is a link to an excellent article from the New Yorker here: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/02/19/070219fa_fact_mayer

I suggest you read it and then you may understand better.
  #28  
Old 01-31-2008, 12:51 AM
paulpaz paulpaz is offline
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Originally Posted by TheTrekkie View Post
Roddenberry's Star Trek was liberal. It even went so far with its liberal ideas like a female first officer, enemies that weren't evil... that they had to remake the pilot.

But I weren't absolutely against torture. It always depends on the message that the scene delivers. If it wants to justify torture as instrument if it creates the impression the end justifies the means, then it has no right to exist in a Star Trek movie. On the other hand it also could be done as many dark things were dealed with in DS9, showing what is wrong and how it mustn't be done.
LOL... first of all, I am not saying there's anything wrong with being liberal and if equality and respect are liberal to you, then fine. the point is that opposing torture is not a liberal or conservative issue. People on both sides of that spectrum are strongly opposed to torture. My uncle is a case in point. A sI said, he was tortured for close to seven years in the Hanoi Hilton. He was a conservative then and for the rest of his life, but he also knew that torture was always wrong, never justified and no civilized community should ever use it.
  #29  
Old 01-31-2008, 12:55 AM
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Khan Noonien Singh Khan Noonien Singh is offline
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I'm not sure where exactly this is coming from, but I haven't read anything about J.J. and crew intending to use this new movie as a platform to justify torture. Even if there is a torture scene or two in this movie, I doubt it'd be done in anyway to seem as though it were an advocation of the act. Once again, I fail to see the necessity of this petition and thread.
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  #30  
Old 01-31-2008, 12:56 AM
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I can't stay up to respond to these comments, but will check again tomorrow. Always amazes me how people get bent out of shape by things like this. As if speaking out against torture in any arena was a waste of time. If you just think that's it, then save your breath everyone. I have been working to combat torture with several prominent human rights organizations for many years and I know what works. Pray to God that if you found yourself in that situation there would be many people out there doing to the same to try to stop your suffering.

Our society is suffering due to the climate of fear and promotion of torture as a viable means to combat terrorism. It is not now, nor has it ever been. Educate yourself to the reality of it and take a moral stand against it, or don't. But if you find yourself arguing for it's use then I expect you have been a victim of the very same propaganda that is being addressed by the Trekkies Against Torture site.

Goodnight.

And to all of you who just read the posts and then signed the site instead of arguing against taking a stand for Star Trek and against torture. thanks!
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