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  #21  
Old 11-04-2008, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
That's right. It's not offical untill approved.
Promotions in the field are subject to Star Fleet's approval. Just like Commander Chokotay. his rank was provisional. When he got back Star Fleet could have said..."I don't think so".

Wesly was made acting ensign because of his outstanding talents. He become full Ensign because of his dedication to his job and his intention to enter the Academy.

Notice thought when he went to the Academy he was busted down to cadet. He didn't maintain that rank, it was only provisional.
I don't think there is any argument regarding your examples, Chakatoy and Wesley.

But I am a firm believer than any promotion Janeway had given to Harry or any other Starfleet member on Voyager (Non-ex-maquis) Starfleet would not have argued with nor ricinded the promotions. Even if Janeway had made Tuvok a full Commander I don't see Starfleet interfering with that after they got home.
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  #22  
Old 11-04-2008, 10:06 AM
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That's right. It's not offical untill approved.
Promotions in the field are subject to Star Fleet's approval. Just like Commander Chokotay. his rank was provisional. When he got back Star Fleet could have said..."I don't think so".
Exactly, so she could have still field promoted him, pending Starfleet's approval upon their return.
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  #23  
Old 11-04-2008, 10:37 AM
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I just remembered a good episode regarding promotions on board a starship. Remember "Lower Decks"? In that episode Riker and Troi are doing crew reviews that will affect promotions. The episode does NOT really specify this, but i would imagine the Captain would have to sign off on any promotions for his crew even if the decision was really made by Troi and Riker's reviews.

Nobody knows the crew better than those that work with them. With the exception of higher ranking officers, it is my belief that all promotions are dealt with at the Ship level. Can you imagine having someone that has never met you make a decision regarding your possible promotion based solely on a file?!! That would be horrible. I say this because saying Starfleet must approve all promotions is kind of like saying the Pentagon must approve all promotions for our soldiers, and that is NOT the way it works.
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  #24  
Old 11-04-2008, 10:43 AM
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I don't think there is any argument regarding your examples, Chakatoy and Wesley.

But I am a firm believer than any promotion Janeway had given to Harry or any other Starfleet member on Voyager (Non-ex-maquis) Starfleet would not have argued with nor ricinded the promotions. Even if Janeway had made Tuvok a full Commander I don't see Starfleet interfering with that after they got home.
Janeway said the difference between the the maquis is that they ones she chose for officer had all been to the Academy. Likely the rest were busted down to cadet if they chose to stay with Star Fleet.

But the point is. There was no reason to promote Harry Kim or any other Star Fleet Officer under her command espeically someone who's been to the Academy. I mean it's really unheard of for a Captain to just promote someone willi-nilly, just because. That's why I said if there was a position to fill I could understand it.

Like Neelix during the Year of Hell.

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Exactly, so she could have still field promoted him, pending Starfleet's approval upon their return.
Ah, but the question is why? He was already an Ensign.
Remeber that Janeway after she returned would be under scrutiny. A review board would inquire as to the placement and reasoning behind all her decisions. Janeway never lost sight of that.
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:51 AM
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But the point is. There was no reason to promote Harry Kim or any other Star Fleet Officer under her command espeically someone who's been to the Academy. I mean it's really unheard of for a Captain to just promote someone willi-nilly, just because. That's why I said if there was a position to fill I could understand it..
Do you believe Harry's performance would have been rewarded with promotions if he had been on another ship within Federation space? Or if he was able to take positions on another ship? If your answer is "yes", than Janeway should have made promotions based on his service record aboard Voyager. In increase in rank does not mean a change of position, especially considering Voyager's unique situation.

My guess is that Harry recieved a couple of promotions shortly after Voyager's return to the Alpha quadrant and Janeway got an a** chewing for ignoring it for so long!!
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  #26  
Old 11-04-2008, 11:07 AM
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If Janeway never intended on returning to Federation Space or she really thought there was no hope of getting home I could see her promotin officers to meet the future requirements of command and authority on Voyager.

You see rank is more about authority than position. The military will promote a person if they intend to give that person authority where before he had none or limited authority. This is done so his contemporaries recognize he is in command. This is a system of seniority.

If you're going to promote Harry from ensign to Lieutenant you must ask yourself:
Who was Harry going to command at OPS?
Why does he need Seniority?
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:26 AM
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If Janeway never intended on returning to Federation Space or she really thought there was no hope of getting home I could see her promotin officers to meet the future requirements of command and authority on Voyager.

You see rank is more about authority than position. The military will promote a person if they intend to give that person authority where before he had none or limited authority. This is done so his contemporaries recognize he is in command. This is a system of seniority.

If you're going to promote Harry from ensign to Lieutenant you must ask yourself:
Who was Harry going to command at OPS?
Why does he need Seniority?
I think you have it backwards. Rank has nothing to do with seniority, it is based on performance. That is why you see old guys (in the military) that are still lower in ranks and sometimes young hotshots that make higher ranks real fast. Yes, the military does have minimum requirments for time in service and time in grade (rank) before someone can be eligible for promotion, but performance is key to getting promoted. If harry excelled in his position he should have been promoted in rank and not necassarily in postion given Voaygers unique situation.

Back to the Trek world aboard Voyager. If janeway wanted to show a true belief that they would get home, she should have continued promoting her crew regardless of their postions on the ship. Many fields do not require one to command another. Look at the sciences and engineering for example.

Based on all this I believe after 7 years out in the delta quadrant there should not have been a single Ensign on Voyager unless that person recenty became an officer, or was a poor performer in his/her duties, position is irrelevant, they all knew where they were needed and best served the ship
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  #28  
Old 11-04-2008, 11:46 AM
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Ah, but the question is why? He was already an Ensign.
Remeber that Janeway after she returned would be under scrutiny. A review board would inquire as to the placement and reasoning behind all her decisions. Janeway never lost sight of that.
In which case she would have a bigger problem explaining why her future self came back through time in 'Endgame' to play about with the timeline, to get the ship home sooner and give Chakotay and Seven a happy ending, when she spent 'Year of Hell' trying to stop the Krenim timeship from doing exactly the same thing!!

But back to Harry, since his character had little to no development, I feel he did nothing to warrant promotion anyway, but if he had, I don't think it's the hardest decision she would have had to justify to Starfleet and any board of inquiry held upon her return.
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  #29  
Old 11-04-2008, 11:52 AM
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I think you have it backwards. Rank has nothing to do with seniority, it is based on performance. That is why you see old guys (in the military) that are still lower in ranks and sometimes young hotshots that make higher ranks real fast. Yes, the military does have minimum requirments for time in service and time in grade (rank) before someone can be eligible for promotion, but performance is key to getting promoted. If harry excelled in his position he should have been promoted in rank and not necassarily in postion given Voaygers unique situation.
According to the ex-military I work with...
In a limited poisition situations where there are x number of positions and a certain amount cannidates for promotions your evaluation, record and awards are considered.

But if there is no position available there will be no promotions at all. I'm a CAD opperator. If I wanted to be Senior CAD Supervisor I'd need my boss to quit or get fired.

Problem is Harry is a bridge Officer. His superior officer is the First Officer or First Mate just like on a real ship. Captain's usually don't handle promotions. That the job of the First Officer anyway to evaluate the crew.
Nevertheless if Harry was going to be promoted then he really need a good reason.


All areas aboard a ship require a senior officer to be in command, whether that be science engineering, bridge or reclamation duty. There is always a Officer on Deck (OOD) or chief your underlings answer too.

Quote:
Based on all this I believe after 7 years out in the delta quadrant there should not have been a single Ensign on Voyager unless that person recenty became an officer, or was a poor performer in his/her duties, position is irrelevant, they all knew where they were needed and best served the ship
The Military works under that premise with review boards and evaluations from Headquarters and staff. In the battlefield which Voyager was in promoting all your ensigns doesn't make sense just because they deserve it. Those aren't battle situations. The military has a status-quo attitude toward rank on the battlefield so as to not confuse the issue of seniority.

Look at the military like a company when officers are at home. They promote those who are deserving and if there are positions available for command.

But on the Battlefield ranks are frozen unless a dire need such as loss or missing status force to change the status quo.

That's why Wesley was busted down to Cadet. He had no formal training and he took no test.

Although the guys here did say that it's unsual for battlefield promotions to be overruled by Headquarters...(lawsuits and etc.) There has to be outstanding reasons to revoke a battlefield promotion.

Edit:
Apparently: Seven years at Ensign isn't unsusal. We see some pretty old Ensigns in Star Trek.
What rank was Picard in that Q alternative timeline Dreamworld thing?
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Last edited by Saquist : 11-04-2008 at 11:55 AM.
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  #30  
Old 11-04-2008, 11:56 AM
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Also, historically, when in wartime or depending where you're stationed, people tend to move up through the ranks pretty fast, depending on performance and all. I'd think Harry and a few others would've been promoted, especially considering their circumstances.
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