The Official Star Trek Movie Forum

The Official Star Trek Movie Forum > Star Trek > Off Topic Discussions > Stargate Universe
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 10-23-2010, 02:55 PM
kevin's Avatar
kevin kevin is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Kilbride, Glasgow, UK
Posts: 21,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
DS9 wasn't muddy, it was sometimes dark and about tough ethical decisions but that's it. It was crystal clear that there is a difference between Sisko and Section 31.
Really muddy means nasty things happen and the ubertext of the show says, "it is OK".

And this kind of cynic, muddy, mishy-mashy sci-fi is what I object to. Science-fiction should be moralistic (or preachy as the TNG haters say ), science-fiction should be dark and say "this is sh*t, let's not go there" or be bright and say "this is great, let's do this". "It's like today" isn't really that much of a justification for sci-if, is it?
It works for me in relation to BSG, and if it doesn't for others fair enough.

Sci-Fi has commonly set 'today's' issues into a futuristic setting in order to function as commentary and allegory so I don't at all see why BSG should not also have done so. Nor am I, to be honest, particularly keen always on boxing sci-fi into one of your listed categories because it doesn't always satisfy.

TNG for example - (yeah, I love it) but it's preachiness grates sometimes because it's never anything else. And frankly, it gets tiring.
__________________
'If the Apocalypse starts, beep me!' - Buffy Summers
'The sky's the limit.....' Jean-Luc Picard, 'All Good Things'


courtesy of Saquist

Last edited by kevin : 10-23-2010 at 03:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 10-23-2010, 03:03 PM
Botany Bay's Avatar
Botany Bay Botany Bay is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Berlin
Posts: 2,112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Watching 'good' and 'likeable' characters dealing with very simple problems with easy 'good' answers can be very unsatisfying as well, because there is very little meat to the problem. This is a problem I have with INS. A very obviously 'bad' thing happening and then the good Trek characters come in to solve the problem. But it's not a real problem at all because it's so obviously 'bad' that the 'good' choice is so painfully obvious in return.

And it's all as dull as the comparison you made about Humans vs Cylons in my book as well.
Well, I dont agree that the choices the people of BSG had to make where hard choices, or at least I cant remember any hard choices. All I remember are things being done that where utterly useless and pointless. So, I would say that where INS gave us some people who where doing the obviously good thing, BSG most of the time gave us people doing the obviously wrong thing.

However, I do sympathize with every attempt of filmmakers to show us people in dire situations where the stress, the fear and desperation takes its toll. Now, take a look at 'Das Boot' and you can see how its done the right way.
Heck, those people even fought for the wrong side, may be the most wrongerestest side in the history of human existance, and still where likeable people.

But hey, it would be unfair of me to demand a TV show to satisfy theater standards and to even imply it would have to reach a movie like 'Das Boot'.

However, if you take a look at Space : Above and Beyond, then you can see a show that does exactly what you discribe: people under a lot of stress, who sometimes loose their temper, who tick out and who are confronted with some tough choices and do not allways pick the right one. However, in the end they have something called integrity and its moralic and ethical integrity. Thats why what fails in BSG works in S:AAB, for my taste that is... all purely subjective, of course.

Gosh, how much I loved S:AAB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p5KO...next=1&index=2

Last edited by Botany Bay : 10-23-2010 at 03:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 10-23-2010, 03:10 PM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
It works for me in relation to BSG, and if it doesn't for others fair enough.

Sci-Fi has commonly set 'today's' issues into a futuristic setting in order to function as commentary and allegory so I don't at all see why BSG should not also have done so. Nor am I, to be honest, particularly keen always on boxing sci-fi into one of your listed categories because it doesn't always satisfy.

TNG for example - (yeah, I love it) but it's preachiness grates sometimes because it's never anything else. And frankly, it gets tiring.
I have seen too little of BSG to be able to judge it but the little I have seen had more in common with BB's description.
But then again I generally prefer something stylized over the hyper-realism of the last decade.
A dandyesque Moore Bond says so much more about the profession and perhaps even the political times than a bleeding and sweating Craig Bond (and MooreBond's coping mechanism wasn't so unlike the ShatKirk's, was it?). The world may come to an end but the protagonist never loses his playfulness, that's art. A guy goes through a lot of sh*t, that's life.
As BB has said, for realism there is real life plus, if I may add, non-fiction.

Last edited by horatio : 10-23-2010 at 03:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 10-23-2010, 03:12 PM
kevin's Avatar
kevin kevin is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Kilbride, Glasgow, UK
Posts: 21,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
Well, I dont agree that the choices the people of BSG had to make where hard choices, or at least I cant remember any hard choices. All I remember are things being done that where utterly useless and pointless. So, I would say that where INS gave us some people who where doing the obviously good thing, BSG most of the time gave us people doing the obviously wrong thing.
Well, obviously to each their own in the TV stakes. Terms such as 'useless' and 'pointless' often also are in the eyes of the beholder.

Quote:
However, I do sympathize with every attempt of filmmakers to show us people in dire situations where the stress, the fear and desperation takes its toll. Now, take a look at Das Boot and you can see how its done the right way.

But hey, it would be unfair of me to demand a TV show to satisfy theater standards and to even imply it would have to reach a movie like Das Boot.

However, if you take a look at Space : Above and beyond, then you can see a show that does exactly what you discribe: people under a lot of stress, who sometimes loose their temper, who tick out and who are confronted with some tough choices and do not allways pick the right one. However, in the end they have something called integrity and its moralic and ethical integrity. Thats why what fails in BSG works in S:AAB, for my taste that is... all purely subjective, of course.

Gosh, how much I loved S:AAB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p5KO...next=1&index=2

It's a long time since I watched that show and I only saw pieces so I really cannot agree or disagree with your opinion of it.

I remember nothing of it really, except Kristen Cloke.
__________________
'If the Apocalypse starts, beep me!' - Buffy Summers
'The sky's the limit.....' Jean-Luc Picard, 'All Good Things'


courtesy of Saquist
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 10-23-2010, 03:16 PM
kevin's Avatar
kevin kevin is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Kilbride, Glasgow, UK
Posts: 21,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
I have seen too little of BSG to be able to judge it but the little I have seen had more in common with BB's description. But then again I generally prefer something stylized over the hyper-realism of the last decade. A dandyesque Moore Bond says so much more about the profession and perhaps even the political times than a bleeding and sweating Craig Bond. As BB has said, for realism there is real life plus, if I may add, non-fiction.
Of course there is.

There's also the fact that not everyone wants stylized every day of the week or only to find out about realism in news reports or the non-fiction section of the library.

Obviously as a TOS fan 'realism' isn't a binding factor for me, but it's a contrast at times.
__________________
'If the Apocalypse starts, beep me!' - Buffy Summers
'The sky's the limit.....' Jean-Luc Picard, 'All Good Things'


courtesy of Saquist
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 10-23-2010, 03:22 PM
Botany Bay's Avatar
Botany Bay Botany Bay is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Berlin
Posts: 2,112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
It's a long time since I watched that show and I only saw pieces so I really cannot agree or disagree with your opinion of it.

I remember nothing of it really, except Kristen Cloke.
Then you will like the episode "Dark Side of the Sun". The showdown is a little weak, but the character moments are great, you get all the stress, the burden of responsibility, the desperation, the fear and the whole episode is about Kristen Clokes character Vansen.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 10-23-2010, 03:37 PM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
However, I do sympathize with every attempt of filmmakers to show us people in dire situations where the stress, the fear and desperation takes its toll. Now, take a look at 'Das Boot' and you can see how its done the right way.
Heck, those people even fought for the wrong side, may be the most wrongerestest side in the history of human existance, and still where likeable people.
A short history of German cinema: silent cinema, new German cinema (Fassbinder, Kluge, etc.), Das Boot .
It's interesting that the characters are of course in the system, they do their job, attack British submarines and rejoice when they hit one, but they are no nazis, the captain doesn't like Doenitz and when they attack that tanker and realize that the crew is still aboard they sympathize with them.

So to boil it down there are decent characters and an evil system, not unlike in Bladerunner. The problem of realistic fiction is that system and characters often merge which is essentially a depoliticization (think about Satie, she wasn't one arbitrary villain, "she or someone like her will always be with us").

It's kinda like with the BP oil spill, the CEO of that company became a public hate figure and thus the problem was moralized: there is no wrong system, only bad people whose butt the POTUS (thinks he) has to kick. And thus the tough questions, is off-shore drilling wise, why did the regulation agencies fail, does corporate law create too much short-run incentives for CEOs, etc were neatly avoided.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Of course there is.

There's also the fact that not everyone wants stylized every day of the week or only to find out about realism in news reports or the non-fiction section of the library.

Obviously as a TOS fan 'realism' isn't a binding factor for me, but it's a contrast at times.
That's a textbook definition for propaganda.
Of course I am not saying that you can't deal with contemporary issues, but please not too bluntly. If you do it directly than you gotta be honest like Oliver Stone, the only Hollywood producer of leftist propaganda. I love his stuff, not because it is informative or objective but because it is propaganda and not sold as something different or as "fair and balanced".
Same with Trek, if you watch TOS or TNG you know that it is left-liberal stuff. It never pretends to be something else.

Last edited by horatio : 10-23-2010 at 03:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 10-24-2010, 02:35 AM
kevin's Avatar
kevin kevin is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Kilbride, Glasgow, UK
Posts: 21,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
That's a textbook definition for propaganda.
Of course I am not saying that you can't deal with contemporary issues, but please not too bluntly. If you do it directly than you gotta be honest like Oliver Stone, the only Hollywood producer of leftist propaganda. I love his stuff, not because it is informative or objective but because it is propaganda and not sold as something different or as "fair and balanced".
Same with Trek, if you watch TOS or TNG you know that it is left-liberal stuff. It never pretends to be something else.
Well, I think that if a TV show taking a 'too bluntly' approach is something that doesn't particularly appeal then I can only consider that perhaps it would be better if you don't make any attempt to watch the series, because, in fairness, it probably won't be to your liking.

Sure they could have made a show like BSG and not made it Sci-fi but just literally set it as today. But the long-standing beauty of Sci-fi is that it allows a disconnect for the audience and the writers and gives a distance to talk about the same things but not set it in the same world as the viewer. To parallel it sometimes and explore it, in a way that the viewer might not realise is being done because they still manage to have space battles and explosions. Though early BSG was indeed blunt enough about what it was mirroring that Stevie Wonder could have gotten it.

Propaganda is fascinating in and of itself but it's not always fact-based, is it? It's about agenda (on both sides) and while that's nice - who doesn't love a leftie yakking about their morals as much as a rightie yakking about theirs while neither have to make actual decisions and can just talk all day about how it all should be- there is in the middle that frustrating sliver which is often a pain the ass: reality.

For me, at the start of BSG's run anyway, the show occupied such a space. Or certainly tried to. It's level of success in that regard obviously varies depending on how one recieved the show. It is a very different style of show to Star Trek. But, as noted previously, that was absolutely never what it wanted to be anyway.

And to be honest, I don't need or want every sci-fi show to be Star Trek. Sure I can watch TOS and TNG and warm to that particular depiction. But, it's also a very simplistic one at times.

I need a skoosh more variety than that. So, it really all depends on my mood. Light or Dark. Simple or more substantial. Optimistic or realistic (maybe even cynical at times). Easy or Hard. I have a fairly wide range of TV and movie likes and dislikes (within and without sci-fi) to sort of tailor to my mood at any given time.

I can't ever predict what 'type' of show/movie I'll want to watch each day. So, I like to have variety to pick from.
__________________
'If the Apocalypse starts, beep me!' - Buffy Summers
'The sky's the limit.....' Jean-Luc Picard, 'All Good Things'


courtesy of Saquist
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 10-24-2010, 03:44 AM
Saquist's Avatar
Saquist Saquist is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,257
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
I usually check the web for new episodes all few weeks and watch the episodes via web-stream.
The advantage of web-stream: Fast Forward.
Without it I would never have seen more then the first 15 minutes of the first three episodes.

I was quite fond of Stragate Atlantis and by now have watched every episode of that show. Thus I was curious about SG:U, because they canceled Atlantis for making SG:U instead. You dont cancel a sucessfull show for no reason. The reason in this case obviously was, that they had no idea how they could possibly reduce costs for Atlantis and at the same time keep it being the same show. Thats why they came up with a new and much cheaper show-concept: SG:U.

About BSG: I have to say that besides the problem of artificially prolonged storyarcs that lead nowhere, I just didnt care for the characters enough to keep watching. They are all a bunch of selfish cowards. Yes, cowards. Sure, they do extreme things. But they never do the right things. They allways only do the things they believe to be necessary in order to save their own butts, often they do extreme things... to save their own butts. While thats great for one or two episodes (like DS9's "In The Pale Moonlight") it gets very tiresome when being done every freaking week and that made me stop care about those people. Just a bunch of selfish guys'n'gals in space who try to keep things going... nowhere. Pure survival is just not good enough to keep me hooked and definetly is not good enough a motivation for heroes I am supposed to care about.

And if you now start talking about how this would have been about realism: If I want to see realistic people, with all their realistic shortcommings, who never do great or heroic stuff, people like you and me, then I usually open my front door and get out. ;D
I loved Stargate Atlantis.
I'm also glad it ended when it did because SGU proves they were going to continue screwing up Atlantis chemistry like they had already done... removing Ford too soon, woosifying the women by making them helpless (Keller and Tey'la or getting ride of them Entirely, Weir) and killing character in a copy of SG-1's dramatic episode (Becket).

It's okay when this is done well and initially it looked as if it would be done well but ALWAYS the conclusion either never came or was really lame and that reminds of SGU right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
Stargate Universe was actually pitched as being a bigger budget version of Stargate. It was not a cost cutting decision, although they may have cut it's budget due to ratings, that I don't know.
The pitched it as more expensive.
The budge was 2 million US. with lower licensing fees and lower sallaries
Atlantis started with a 5 million dollar budget.

So despite what they said...it's definitely a cheap show.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 10-24-2010, 04:09 PM
Captain Tom Coughlin's Avatar
Captain Tom Coughlin Captain Tom Coughlin is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USS Meadowlands
Posts: 10,989
Default

There is no way they were spending 5 Million an episode. Where did that number come from?
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:20 AM.


Forum theme courtesy of Mark Lambert
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2009 by Paramount Pictures. STAR TREK and all related
marks and logos are trademarks of CBS Studios Inc. All Rights Reserved.