[Chucky D]

Originally Posted by horatio

Some prefer mindless action, some prefer well composed stories. I am for the latter and thus prefer FC and Insurrection.

I enjoy a story-first approach as well. Makes me want to see Insurrection.

[kevin]

Originally Posted by horatio

Which was totally out of character for the Borg, they assimilate and reproduce asexually. Just some dumb sex scene to gain the general audience.
Now compare this to the relationship between Picard and Lily whcih evolved from initial mistrust to true friendship.

The Lily character was a good counter-point to Picard's revenge story in that as well.

However Insurrection had more than it's fair share of mindless action just as much as any other Trek film alongside it's plot so I don't see that makes Insurrection any better. But I should preface that with the fact that the 'fountain of youth' story was so hackneyed I wasn't actually looking forward to that aspect anyway. It's one of those fiction ideas I generally find stupid whatever type of film it appears in.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by Chucky D

I enjoy a story-first approach as well. Makes me want to see Insurrection.

Didn't you see Insurrection yet?

Originally Posted by kevin

The Lily character was a good counter-point to Picard's revenge story in that as well.

I think that is what a true friend does IMO, frankly telling you his opinion, especially when you are about to do something wrong.

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by horatio

Some prefer mindless action, some prefer well composed stories. I am for the latter and thus prefer FC and Insurrection.

And I guess "well crafted stories" makes one "more Trek than thou"?

For the record, I never said that First Contact wasn't a well composed story, or lacking in action. It just felt (and looked) like a television episode.


Mindless action belongs in chop-socky movies. I never saw mindless action in any Trek film. All the action served a purpose, unlike chop-socky movies where all you have to do is have two antagonists just glare at each other the wrong way, then make with the kung pao!

Based on your statement, I guess I'm just a dumbfrack compared to your superior intellect.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by martok2112

And I guess "well crafted stories" makes one "more Trek than thou"?

For the record, I never said that First Contact wasn't a well composed story, or lacking in action. It just felt (and looked) like a television episode.


Mindless action belongs in chop-socky movies. I never saw mindless action in any Trek film. All the action served a purpose, unlike chop-socky movies where all you have to do is have two antagonists just glare at each other the wrong way, then make with the kung pao!

Based on your statement, I guess I'm just a dumbfrack compared to your superior intellect.

I did not want to insult you or claim that I am smarter. I just expressed my opinion that Nemesis is some mindless action, since I found it ridiculous that the Remans could defeat the might Romulan Star Empire, since I did not understand why Shinzon tried to annihilate earth instead of Romulus and since the characters get no real characters moments (just think about Data's death) or even out of line (Picard having fun driving aroudn in a buggy?).
Insurrection e.g. on the other hand had only average action yet dealt with the Prime Directive and the old theme of the goods of the few and the many.
Besides that, the benchmark for the final movie is obviously TUC, and I did not get this goodbye feeling in Nemesis. Riker and Troi leaving the ship and Data's death clearly indicated it, but there were no scenes like in TUC, where Kirk and Spock have their last dialogue in Spocks's quarter, the E sailing of one last time before decommisioned in the very end etc.

This is just my opinion about the TNG movies, I never intended to get personal or imply that someone who prefers action over plot or characters is "less Trek". Gladly, there is enough ST such that everone finds something that suits him

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by horatio

I did not want to insult you or claim that I am smarter. I just expressed my opinion that Nemesis is some mindless action, since I found it ridiculous that the Remans could defeat the might Romulan Star Empire, since I did not understand why Shinzon tried to annihilate earth instead of Romulus and since the characters get no real characters moments (just think about Data's death) or even out of line (Picard having fun driving aroudn in a buggy?).
Insurrection e.g. on the other hand had only average action yet dealt with the Prime Directive and the old theme of the goods of the few and the many.
Besides that, the benchmark for the final movie is obviously TUC, and I did not get this goodbye feeling in Nemesis. Riker and Troi leaving the ship and Data's death clearly indicated it, but there were no scenes like in TUC, where Kirk and Spock have their last dialogue in Spocks's quarter, the E sailing of one last time before decommisioned in the very end etc.

This is just my opinion about the TNG movies, I never intended to get personal or imply that someone who prefers action over plot or characters is "less Trek". Gladly, there is enough ST such that everone finds something that suits him

And I will agree that TUC is indeed a benchmark for a "final adventure" flick.

Nemesis did feel more like: "Ok, we're gonna hit the pause button here....indefinitely."

I did find it surprising that the Remans were actually able to construct their Warbird in total secrecy, but then again, when one side of the planet is covered in night, it might be difficult to spot such a project.

See, this is where I agree that Nemesis, while I love it, is deeply flawed. You bring up some great points...especially regarding just how the Remans supposedly gained superiority against their close neighbor, Romulus.

Shinzon's hatred towards the Federation and Earth I think was just a result of a deep seated hatred toward Romulus...and toward any "superpower." I think he perceived any powerful entity (Feds, Klingons, Roms) as a superpower capable of conquest and slavery....and he wanted to launch a first strike. (Just some ideas here. ) Shinzon still needed the Romulans, because they had ALL the Warbirds and warships....he just had the Scimitar, and although it was a uber-ship, it was only but one such ship. Sure, he almost took out three ships, but even an uber ship like that could certainly not stand up against an entire fleet or armada. So, my personal opinion is, he still needed the Romulan military might, even if he did despise them. Also, there was internal conspiracy on Romulus that paved the way for Shinzon's ascension. This is something I wish they would've covered in more detail...perhaps it would not've seemed so arbitrary.

I'm not really sure that Picard driving around in a buggy would be "out of character". The thing I keep in mind is that, no matter how long you think you know somebody....you never really know them. They'll always surprise you with something. It's the same with characters. If we kept them "in their box" as it were, then there would be no character growth, and they'd become predictable.

My only real b***h, character-wise, is Worf becoming "comic-relief" in Insurrection, and Nemesis. (This was done with tasteful rarity in the series...and there were even a couple of tongue in cheek moments in Generations and First Contact...but by Insurrection and Nemesis, he really was the comic sidekick, and not the duty sworn chief of security we've known for almost 20 years.) Having fun at the Klingon's expense is one thing....but I do think they went a wee bit too far with it.

Apologies for the "grrrrr"....we cool.

Steve

[Zardoz]

Do I have to send in the Romulan diplomats?

[horatio]

Originally Posted by martok2112

And I will agree that TUC is indeed a benchmark for a "final adventure" flick.

Nemesis did feel more like: "Ok, we're gonna hit the pause button here....indefinitely."

I did find it surprising that the Remans were actually able to construct their Warbird in total secrecy, but then again, when one side of the planet is covered in night, it might be difficult to spot such a project.

See, this is where I agree that Nemesis, while I love it, is deeply flawed. You bring up some great points...especially regarding just how the Remans supposedly gained superiority against their close neighbor, Romulus.

Shinzon's hatred towards the Federation and Earth I think was just a result of a deep seated hatred toward Romulus...and toward any "superpower." I think he perceived any powerful entity (Feds, Klingons, Roms) as a superpower capable of conquest and slavery....and he wanted to launch a first strike. (Just some ideas here. ) Shinzon still needed the Romulans, because they had ALL the Warbirds and warships....he just had the Scimitar, and although it was a uber-ship, it was only but one such ship. Sure, he almost took out three ships, but even an uber ship like that could certainly not stand up against an entire fleet or armada. So, my personal opinion is, he still needed the Romulan military might, even if he did despise them. Also, there was internal conspiracy on Romulus that paved the way for Shinzon's ascension. This is something I wish they would've covered in more detail...perhaps it would not've seemed so arbitrary.

I'm not really sure that Picard driving around in a buggy would be "out of character". The thing I keep in mind is that, no matter how long you think you know somebody....you never really know them. They'll always surprise you with something. It's the same with characters. If we kept them "in their box" as it were, then there would be no character growth, and they'd become predictable.

My only real b***h, character-wise, is Worf becoming "comic-relief" in Insurrection, and Nemesis. (This was done with tasteful rarity in the series...and there were even a couple of tongue in cheek moments in Generations and First Contact...but by Insurrection and Nemesis, he really was the comic sidekick, and not the duty sworn chief of security we've known for almost 20 years.) Having fun at the Klingon's expense is one thing....but I do think they went a wee bit too far with it.

Apologies for the "grrrrr"....we cool.

Steve

Glad you also enjoyed TUC. Thanks for your explanations, especially the oen concernign Picard buggy driving. When he said goodbye to Riker, he also have him the tip to not listen to his first officer on the Titan, which also supporst what you said, that Picard changed (with Frakes directing two movies, they also head no choice but to let Picard lead the troops).
Worf was indeed overdone a bit in Insurrection. "Definitely feeling aggressive tendencies" was great IMO but the pimple was too much.

Originally Posted by Zardoz

Do I have to send in the Romulan diplomats?

Oh my god Zardoz, that is great, Vreenak and his fake bunny.
Thanks for you help, but please no Romulans, I doubt Martok and Surak would appreciate their archenemy respectively distant cousins.

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by horatio

Glad you also enjoyed TUC. Thanks for your explanations, especially the oen concernign Picard buggy driving. When he said goodbye to Riker, he also have him the tip to not listen to his first officer on the Titan, which also supporst what you said, that Picard changed (with Frakes directing two movies, they also head no choice but to let Picard lead the troops).
Worf was indeed overdone a bit in Insurrection. "Definitely feeling aggressive tendencies" was great IMO but the pimple was too much.




Oh my god Zardoz, that is great, Vreenak and his fake bunny.
Thanks for you help, but please no Romulans, I doubt Martok and Surak would appreciate their archenemy respectively distant cousins.

Please feel free to use it. Oh I think Surak would understand, he was all about acceptance and IDIC.

[Chucky D]

Originally Posted by horatio

Didn't you see Insurrection yet?

I haven't seen Insurrection or Nemesis yet. Isn't that weird? I don't even remember the reasons why especially since I had seen EVERY previous TOS and TNG movie in the theater (and on or near opening night). And, there is no excuse for me not renting them either. In the 80's and 90's I really didn't get into the TNG series. I kind of jumped from TOS and the early films to Voyager. However, I am now asking for forgiveness and ready to begin my TNG journey.