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  #21  
Old 07-16-2008, 09:53 AM
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No and I agree that the first film isn't the best place to start such development, however that same business decision making process will apply to a sequel if things get that far, and thus creative ideas can still be nixed. There will always be protests over depictions of gay relationships - Trek either tries to incorporate this at some point or it forever avoids it.
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  #22  
Old 07-16-2008, 09:59 AM
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No and I agree that the first film isn't the best place to start such development, however that same business decision making process will apply to a sequel if things get that far, and thus creative ideas can still be nixed. There will always be protests over depictions of gay relationships - Trek either tries to incorporate this at some point or it forever avoids it.
Could be, though I think the chances improve greatly for incorporating characters into the second film, because then the franchise is established... and clearly a large group of fans would like it.

Plus, here's one way of looking at it: might it not be better for the idea to do it right in the second film, rather than shoehorn it artificially into this first story which already has so much on its plate? i.e. put in a meaningful depiction of it, rather than a token one. I don't see how dropping in a 'token gay character' for the sake of checking it off a to-do list really advances the social notion being sought here. Then again, we've gone around and around on this on the previous folders.

However it will be done, I think it should be done well and organically -- if it's not going to happen until the second film, it will still be worthwhile. Certainly better in a second film than never.
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  #23  
Old 07-16-2008, 10:03 AM
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Could be, though I think the chances improve greatly for incorporating characters into the second film, because then the franchise is established... and clearly a large group of fans would like it.

Plus, here's one way of looking at it: might it not be better for the idea to do it right in the second film, rather than shoehorn it artificially into this first story which already has so much on its plate? i.e. put in a meaningful depiction of it, rather than a token one. I don't see how dropping in a 'token gay character' for the sake of checking it off a to-do list really advances the social notion being sought here. Then again, we've gone around and around on this on the previous folders.

However it will be done, I think it should be done well and organically -- if it's not going to happen until the second film, it will still be worthwhile. Certainly better in a second film than never.
I comlpletely agree with that, the first will have far too much going on, based on all the hints and speculation! I suppose what I'm saying is that I support the idea of expressing it later, and it should be done organically (if I can borrow the word!), rather than 'and now...on a very special Star Trek', and that if the scriptwriters want to do it, they shouldn't face pressure to drop it in case it offends some people.
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  #24  
Old 07-16-2008, 10:41 AM
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Hm, were they afraid of splitting the audience and polarizing the fans when they created Uhura?
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  #25  
Old 07-16-2008, 10:47 AM
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Hm, were they afraid of splitting the audience and polarizing the fans when they created Uhura?
And some NBC netowrk afiliates wouldn't run TOS becuase of it back in the 60's.
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  #26  
Old 07-16-2008, 11:14 AM
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Hm, were they afraid of splitting the audience and polarizing the fans when they created Uhura?
No, but that was also the mid-60s and the height of the Civil Rights movement. Also, it was a TV series, not a one-shot feature film with $150 million and an entire franchise at risk.

I agree with your point entirely, NCC. It's an absolute fact that media corporations are nowhere near as brave or pioneering with their money today, since today they're much more about stock profits than creative advancement. So it's a constant struggle between creative artists willing to push and explore social/political/entertainment boundaries and conservative corporate profit centers.

My guess is they'll be much less worried if the creators want to include a gay relationship/characters in the second film, since the risk will be so much less with an established film franchise up and running. Any audience members lost by 'offense' to a gay relationship will likely be gained back with support from gay and gay-friendly fans.

Would the same equation apply equally to this first film? Yes, on the surface. But let's not forget how even dedicated fan support pretty much evaporated by the time NEMESIS hit theaters, and with an entirely new start here, Paramount cannot automatically rely on millions upon millions of fans supporting this new film.

I don't consider any of that an excuse to duck out on addressing such issues, but they are nonetheless harsh realities which can't be dismissed either. If fans support this new film and express a desire for the franchise to continue, such risks will diminish greatly. In the end, it's not only up to the studio or the creators alone.
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  #27  
Old 07-16-2008, 11:28 AM
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No, but that was also the mid-60s and the height of the Civil Rights movement. Also, it was a TV series, not a one-shot feature film with $150 million and an entire franchise at risk.

I agree with your point entirely, NCC. It's an absolute fact that media corporations are nowhere near as brave or pioneering with their money today, since today they're much more about stock profits than creative advancement. So it's a constant struggle between creative artists willing to push and explore social/political/entertainment boundaries and conservative corporate profit centers.

My guess is they'll be much less worried if the creators want to include a gay relationship/characters in the second film, since the risk will be so much less with an established film franchise up and running. Any audience members lost by 'offense' to a gay relationship will likely be gained back with support from gay and gay-friendly fans.

Would the same equation apply equally to this first film? Yes, on the surface. But let's not forget how even dedicated fan support pretty much evaporated by the time NEMESIS hit theaters, and with an entirely new start here, Paramount cannot automatically rely on millions upon millions of fans supporting this new film.

I don't consider any of that an excuse to duck out on addressing such issues, but they are nonetheless harsh realities which can't be dismissed either. If fans support this new film and express a desire for the franchise to continue, such risks will diminish greatly. In the end, it's not only up to the studio or the creators alone.
A well expressed view there Mission!
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  #28  
Old 07-16-2008, 12:06 PM
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I'm gay - and to be honest, I don't see a need for it(from a social statement point of view). It'd be nice to have and very easy to work into this movie, but why? I'm secure in my sexuality and secure in my own skin, I don't need someone telling me "it's all right to be gay" - I know it is.

As for the Trek point of view, there I see a need for it. If we are to believe humanity will eventually wander the stars like this, there will be NO PLACE for any prejudice whatsoever. What seems strange and backwards to us might very well be a way of life on some planet in System B-19. It should've been done a "long time ago" from current Trek. Obviously gay people exist in Trek, but we've never seen them, so we don't know how they'd be treated.
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  #29  
Old 07-17-2008, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tejdog1 View Post
I'm gay - and to be honest, I don't see a need for it(from a social statement point of view). It'd be nice to have and very easy to work into this movie, but why? I'm secure in my sexuality and secure in my own skin, I don't need someone telling me "it's all right to be gay" - I know it is.

As for the Trek point of view, there I see a need for it. If we are to believe humanity will eventually wander the stars like this, there will be NO PLACE for any prejudice whatsoever. What seems strange and backwards to us might very well be a way of life on some planet in System B-19. It should've been done a "long time ago" from current Trek. Obviously gay people exist in Trek, but we've never seen them, so we don't know how they'd be treated.
Then you'll be pleased that the New Voyages/Phase II site is doing the Webisode "Fire and Blood" the main "guests of the story are a same sex couple, one of them Kirk's nephew Peter.
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  #30  
Old 07-17-2008, 03:53 AM
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Then you'll be pleased that the New Voyages/Phase II site is doing the Webisode "Fire and Blood" the main "guests of the story are a same sex couple, one of them Kirk's nephew Peter.
Never watched/downloaded an episode of New Voyages. How is it?
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