[radoskal]

All I gotta say is...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPWksvuRKwg

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Tiberius1964

Well, I have this sneaking suspicion about J. Michael Strazynski (sp?). There are books out there that are episode guides, and have snippets from interviews with actors, directors, etc., for each episode. At the beginning of each book is a small chapter about one aspect of the show; for example, one is about special effects (interesting trivia - the special effect director would scan materials to use as "texture" for items, and the texture for shadow vessels was his dog's nose!).

Anyway, when you go through the books, some ideas and quotes from JMS stand out - like using Walter Koenig for the character of Bester, and then bringing him back and being happy about giving him some really heavy lifting to do in episodes, unlike Walter's experience on ST:TOS. Or using Adam Nimoy to direct a few episodes, or D.C. Fontana to write a few (Season 1) episodes. And mostly denying any resemblance between B5 and ST (either TOS or TNG), aside from some griping about relative budgets.

All of which makes me think that JMS was trying, consciously or unconsciously, to avoid the pitfalls of ST and...perhaps...remedy a few of what he saw as its faults?

Just a personal theory, of course. I'm sure he'd deny it vociferously.

No I agree, I think he very much wasn't impressed by Trek and felt it was too nicey, nice with everyone as one hapy family and actively set out to do the opposite. I don't think he hates Trek, but he wasn't a big fan I don't think.

[TheTrekkie]

Originally Posted by kevin

I agree that I don't think DS9 copied B5 in any way other than being set on a space station. If you go back to the development history I think DS9 was in production first anyway, starting in 1992 while B5 didn't debut until 1993. But DS9 never started with the 5 year plan B5 did, so it's later develoments were more fluid and less pre-planned.

I like the assessement there regarding the choices we have around our destiny, and the idea that some of can be in your hands, but if you don't want to change it, then it will play out as foretold, because it can't then go any other way.

Maybe Paramount copied the idea. They refused JMS because they knew that something like that couldn't earn the big money. But something like that with the name "Star Trek" in it maybe could.

But Paramount didn't create DS9, maybe they gave the starting signal, but then it was RDM and his autors who worked on the specific story. And these autors wanted to create a own world, so that in the end only the idea of a space station stayed similar.

I don't think he hates Trek, but he wasn't a big fan I don't think.

I don't think he hates Trek, because he once made a proposal how to rescue Star Trek with a TOS Reboot.

Here his idea:

http://bztv.typepad.com/newsviews/fi...2004Reboot.pdf

[kevin]

Originally Posted by TheTrekkie

Maybe Paramount copied the idea. They refused JMS because they knew that something like that couldn't earn the big money. But something like that with the name "Star Trek" in it maybe could.

But Paramount didn't create DS9, maybe they gave the starting signal, but then it was RDM and his autors who worked on the specific story. And these autors wanted to create a own world, so that in the end only the idea of a space station stayed similar.

I don't think he hates Trek, because he once made a proposal how to rescue Star Trek with a TOS Reboot.

Here his idea:

http://bztv.typepad.com/newsviews/fi...2004Reboot.pdf

Sound just like babylon 5 all over again - he takes what we already know of the Preservers and the race from TNG's 'The Chase' and beefs them up with Babylon 5 'Old race' mythos, turns it into an overall mystery (coz all shows now gotta have that?), adopts the same season structure and 5 year arc and voila, a 'new' Babylon 5.

Don't get me wrong, it sounds ok, but not 'new'. He's just taking the template of 21st Century TV shows and retrofitting it to Trek. It might be enjoyable to watch and I agree that more realistic adult relationships and friendhsips would benefit the series greatly, more difference of opinion and falling out along the way, like real relationships placed under a microcosm.

Does anyone know why it never got past proposal stage?

[radoskal]

Originally Posted by kevin

Sound just like babylon 5 all over again - he takes what we already know of the Preservers and the race from TNG's 'The Chase' and beefs them up with Babylon 5 'Old race' mythos, turns it into an overall mystery (coz all shows now gotta have that?), adopts the same season structure and 5 year arc and voila, a 'new' Babylon 5.

Don't get me wrong, it sounds ok, but not 'new'. He's just taking the template of 21st Century TV shows and retrofitting it to Trek. It might be enjoyable to watch and I agree that more realistic adult relationships and friendhsips would benefit the series greatly, more difference of opinion and falling out along the way, like real relationships placed under a microcosm.

Does anyone know why it never got past proposal stage?

Because it's Babylon 5 and not Star Trek?

[TheTrekkie]

Originally Posted by kevin

Sound just like babylon 5 all over again - he takes what we already know of the Preservers and the race from TNG's 'The Chase' and beefs them up with Babylon 5 'Old race' mythos, turns it into an overall mystery (coz all shows now gotta have that?), adopts the same season structure and 5 year arc and voila, a 'new' Babylon 5.

Don't get me wrong, it sounds ok, but not 'new'. He's just taking the template of 21st Century TV shows and retrofitting it to Trek. It might be enjoyable to watch and I agree that more realistic adult relationships and friendhsips would benefit the series greatly, more difference of opinion and falling out along the way, like real relationships placed under a microcosm.

Does anyone know why it never got past proposal stage?

I think he took some basic ideas that already worked with babylon 5, but I think they would look very different for Star Trek TOS, the basics are similar, but the implementation would be unique.
Taking JMS basic concept already worked for DS9

Well I don't know how serious JMS' offered the proposal. Maybe it was just an idea concerning the bad results of the last serie and movie.
And just think about Paramount's real decisions afterward. They are making a new TOS movie, not that far away from the proposal.

[kevin]

Originally Posted by TheTrekkie

I think he took some basic ideas that already worked with babylon 5, but I think they would look very different for Star Trek TOS, the basics are similar, but the implementation would be unique.
Taking JMS basic concept already worked for DS9

Well I don't know how serious JMS' offered the proposal. Maybe it was just an idea concerning the bad results of the last serie and movie.
And just think about Paramount's real decisions afterward. They are making a new TOS movie, not that far away from the proposal.

Yep i would agree with that, obviously B5 worked very well, as a show and for him, so it's not surprising that he would use that to influence his reboot, and I don't think it caouldn't work as such, but B5 had a much less hopeful, optimistic view of man's future, and I don't know how well JMS would be able to reflect those core Trek values, when he seemed to propose a very dark story on B5.

My own opinion is that DS9 and B5 were just developed at the same time. Paramount had been interested in a new series for a while given the healthiness of the franchise at the time. And another starship set series would have been nothing new, so it's not a leap to consider a space station instead.

It seems that a lot of proposals go through different hands. I imagine JJ is well aware of the JMS proposal but since in the last few years reboot's and reinventions (Batman, Superman etc) are popular again it's not a surprise he's going back to what the broadest possible audience knows - Kirk, Spock and McCoy.

[TheTrekkie]

and I don't think it caouldn't work as such, but B5 had a much less hopeful, optimistic view of man's future, and I don't know how well JMS would be able to reflect those core Trek values, when he seemed to propose a very dark story on B5.

Hmm hard to say, I even wouldn't totaly agree on the first aspect. Season 1 of Babylon 5 almost felt like a new Star Trek serie, "last best hope for peace.." and I don't agree that B5 hasn't a optimistic view on man's future at all. It has a differentiated view on mankind. On the one hand the dark aspects of mankind like Clark's putsch, racism, alcoholism, but on the other hand they also changed the universe, built up an Alliance of all races, the one central message of Babylon 5 was that one person can change the world, that you can beat destiny when you want to, but when you don't you fall into darkness.
Morella: "There is always choice. We say there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with the decision we have already made."

However I think JMS never intended to make a Star Trek serie on his own, I think he just gave a suggestion what to change to find back on track. All the important aspects like character development and storyarc were aspects Voyager and Enterprise had deficits. They still felt like a serie from the 80s.

[kevin]

It's been quite some time since I watched B5 and I'm going a lot from memory but while I kind of remember the 'last best hope for peace' aspect it never really accomlished that fully did it - I mean going back to the Earth-Mimbari war the only thing that stopped man being wiped out was Delenn realised who was amongst the humans (I've a memory block on the character's name) because he had a mimbari soul and was destined to become Valen. a thousand years prior. I mean If he had beat his destiny he would never have become what he was supposed to and the Human's would have been destroyed, meaning no later alliance to align the new races to fight the Shadow War. His destiny couldn't possibly be altered (even if he didn't understand it) or it would have been disastrous.

Anyway, it could have been interesting but perhaps JJ has used some of it as the basis for his version.

[Tiberius1964]

Originally Posted by kevin

No I agree, I think he very much wasn't impressed by Trek and felt it was too nicey, nice with everyone as one hapy family and actively set out to do the opposite. I don't think he hates Trek, but he wasn't a big fan I don't think.

Originally Posted by TheTrekkie

and I don't agree that B5 hasn't a optimistic view on man's future at all. It has a differentiated view on mankind. On the one hand the dark aspects of mankind like Clark's putsch, racism, alcoholism, but on the other hand they also changed the universe, built up an Alliance of all races, the one central message of Babylon 5 was that one person can change the world, that you can beat destiny when you want to, but when you don't you fall into darkness.
Morella: "There is always choice. We say there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with the decision we have already made."

Hi, Kevin. Not sure I expressed quite right - I don't think JMS hates (or does not hate) Trek, or is (or is not) a big fan. I think he looked at ST TOS and saw flaws in the way the show was made - in how it used secondary characters, in how the events of one episode almost never impacted any episode after that - in how talented people were, at times, not allowed to follow their creative muses. And I think he set out to not only build B5, but to build B5 in such a way as to avoid those flaws. But in doing so, he also attempted to redress some of what he saw as flaws - hence Walter Koenig's juicy recurring character, Bester; giving D.C. Fontana a couple of episodes to write with no more than a paragraph outlining the general idea, and leaving the entire thing completely up to her; just having characters who have arcs, and who get hurt in one episode and are walking with a cane in the next episode. Etc.

Hi, Trekkie. Perhaps I've not used the right word in contrasting the atmosphere of B5 vs ST. ST is perhaps more idealistic than optimistic - we will learn to stop shooting each other (and others, except when we have no choice), we will learn to feed the people of this planet, we will learn to allow them to develop to their fullest potential, we will grow up and become a civilized race. While B5 continues to have a more realistic, pragmatic view of human nature - there are still naked power plays, assassinations, conspiracies, political maneuvering, bribes, crimes, etc. The idealism of ST is something to strive for, but B5 seems to be saying that in the next 2 centuries we ain't gonna overcome behaviour rooted in millions of years of evolution.

It's interesting to note, however, that both ST and B5 seem to be remarkably pessimistic on the nature of bureaucracy...

Have fun!