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  #241  
Old 12-21-2008, 09:18 AM
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Interesting. Even though official numbers tell us one thing, to achieve that kind of accurate scaling is actually pretty difficult to achieve on screen for television.
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  #242  
Old 12-21-2008, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Okay...

We now know beyond a shadow of a doubt Defiant is 110 meters long
Defiant in this picture is the blue line.

The Negh'var is the red line and it was scaled to the visual image bellow the blueprint.

The result tells us the Red line (Negh'var) is 2208 meters long. Twice the length of a Star Destroyer.
Why not just take the dimensions from Memory Alpha? Per it's specifications entry Defiant is 170.68 meters long, 134.11 meters beam and 30.1 meters in height.

The Klingon ship, their largest, is 682.32 Meters long, 470.09 meters beam and 136.65 meters high. Sourced from the DS9 technical manual. While it doesn't say how many times it was scaled up for the episode in question, I thought it may help with calculating.

What might also help is that the photgraphic model of the Defiant was 2 and a half feet long, and was photographed against a 25-30 (depending on which figure you read) foot model of the underside of the Klingon ship in order to get the scale they wanted for the Regent's ship.

Last edited by kevin : 12-21-2008 at 09:56 AM.
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  #243  
Old 12-21-2008, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
Interesting. Even though official numbers tell us one thing, to achieve that kind of accurate scaling is actually pretty difficult to achieve on screen for television.
Oh yes...It's very difficult. this was the best parallel image I could get and the negh'var is still tilted so that we're catching it a little from behind. That means while Defiant is parallel to the camera the Negh'var is thus a bit longer than it appears.

As a result it could be up to 100 meters longer than my estimate.

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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Why not just take the dimensions from Memory Alpha? Per it's specifications entry Defiant is 170.68 meters long, 134.11 meters beam and 30.1 meters in height.

The Klingon ship, their largest, is 682.32 Meters long, 470.09 meters beam and 136.65 meters high. Sourced from the DS9 technical manual. While it doesn't say how many times it was scaled up for the episode in question, I thought it may help with calculating.

What might also help is that the photgraphic model of the Defiant was 2 and a half feet long, and was photographed against a 25-30 (depending on which figure you read) foot model of the underside of the Klingon ship in order to get the scale they wanted for the Regent's ship.
I used to take the 170.68 meters as canon. The ship seemed big on screen but then I actually scaled Defiant versus the Defiant's Multi-System Display and it turns out Defiant isn't that big at all. If it were the decks would be made considerably larger than we see on screen.

As a result the negh'var seems to be 2,200 or 2300 meters long.
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  #244  
Old 12-21-2008, 10:23 AM
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I used to take the 170.68 meters as canon. The ship seemed big on screen but then I actually scaled Defiant versus the Defiant's Multi-System Display and it turns out Defiant isn't that big at all. If it were the decks would be made considerably larger than we see on screen.

As a result the negh'var seems to be 2,200 or 2300 meters long.
Ok, I would stick with the 170 personally but it's your figures. The Regent's version would probably come in at around that. But not the standard non-mirror universe one.
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  #245  
Old 12-21-2008, 10:30 AM
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Remember if you scale Defiant to 170 you'd have to add another Deck.
Conceptually...it's a better explanation if the ship merely isn't scaled correctly as opposed to constructed correctly. From what I know, Defiant has but four decks.
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  #246  
Old 12-21-2008, 10:34 AM
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Remember if you scale Defiant to 170 you'd have to add another Deck.
Apparently not, I mean, that 170 will have been derived from the work and scaling intentions of the designers, model makers and effects staff who worked on designing the ship. It wouldn't be a random measurement someone picked off a shelf, is all I'm saying. All starships built by the effects houses for the films and TV shows have dimensions attached for them to work with, especially now that they go to such effort to scale correctly. So why lop 60 meters off in order to get the dimensions of another ship to work?
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  #247  
Old 12-21-2008, 05:34 PM
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Unfortunatly the ship was not designed by the same person that created the MSD Michael Okuda. But they are the ones that told him...Defiant has four decks so without knowing it they contradicted themselves and that's becaues they didn't have an idea of how big the ship was in the first place.
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  #248  
Old 12-22-2008, 01:12 PM
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I find that very odd since no starship design doesn't come with dimensions in order to provide it's size relative to other ships. While mis-communication is always possible, they would have known how big it was supposed to be when they designed it. If they didn't know how big it was to start with, it could never have been correctly photographed and composited into any effects shots that involved other ships properly. That problem of scaling models was a big problem on TNG in it's early days, but by DS9 happened far less often.
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  #249  
Old 12-22-2008, 03:21 PM
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Because I first saw the DS9 with the the 170 meter length I was a pretty staunch supporter of that stat. It made more sense to me that Defiant was about half the length of Intrepid, that it was a large ship close to Miranda's size such as it's often seen.

However this is the first time I've changed that position because the CAD scaling shows otherwise. But I found that Defiant has lot of scaling problems....

See here. : http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...t-problems.htm
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  #250  
Old 12-22-2008, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Because I first saw the DS9 with the the 170 meter length I was a pretty staunch supporter of that stat. It made more sense to me that Defiant was about half the length of Intrepid, that it was a large ship close to Miranda's size such as it's often seen.

However this is the first time I've changed that position because the CAD scaling shows otherwise. But I found that Defiant has lot of scaling problems....

See here. : http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...t-problems.htm
I would say though, that the ship with THE MOST scaling problems has been the Klingon Bird of Prey....which is why we ended up with at least three or four classes of just that ship:

1. B'rel (scout ship...Kruge's vessel, Chang's vessel, Klaa's vessel)
2. D-12 (B'rel variant?.... Lursa and B'tor's ship)
3. K'vort (Battlecruiser class....mistakenly said to be larger than the Negh'var class in the DS9 Technical Manual...yeah...I had major problems with those numbers.)

I remember in the old FASA Star Trek RPG/Starship Tactical Combat Simulator, there were three classes of the BoP. The Bird of Prey which was the scout class wessel (apologies to Chekov), and the Stronger Bird, which, IIRC, was a destroyer class, and the Great Bird, which was almost battlecruiser class. Beyond that, using the Construction Manual rules, I did stats for the K'vort, which I jokingly referred to as the "Big Bird" (even thought of switching its color scheme from greens and reds to canary yellow..LOL!), and created a fighter sized (four man crew) Bird of Prey called the "Little Wing" (with apologies to Jimi Hendrix).
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