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  #151  
Old 10-19-2008, 11:36 PM
captian beckett captian beckett is offline
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ok why does everyone type so much
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  #152  
Old 10-20-2008, 11:31 AM
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Well, why do you start threads then express surprise when people have fun discussing them?
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  #153  
Old 10-20-2008, 03:26 PM
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Yes, I would expect under normal operations, the fleet, whatever size it is, would be fairly evenly spread across the area of space covered by the Federation, with perhaps some slightly higher concentrations close to any known trouble spots.

But in 'Favour the Bold', we are told that the Dominion fleet numbers 1254 ships, twice as many as the Starfleet forces (which must therefore be around 625 ships, which may or may not include the Starfleet fighters used in the battle as well). Having discovered this fact I have revised my own ideas about fleet numbers to closer to 1000 (since in dialogue nothing higher than the 10th fleet was referred to I would say 1000 ships split into 10 fleets, comprising the whole fleet).

And that battle was built up to for several weeks, surely enough time to call in more than 600 out of 25,000 ships for the assault. If the Starfleet numbered nearer 1000 and lost many in the 'Bold/Sacrifice of Angels battle' it helps explain why that was the last time we saw such a big fleet of only Starfleet ships, later ones added in allies such as Klingons etc to boost numbers, because Starfleet no longer had enough ships to mount an assault using only their own ships. Assuming by this point as well that reserve fleet and mothballed ships were being refit and put back into quick service then I don't think the fleet ever passed the 1000 mark, even at it's largest and most powerful, making it then urgent to block the wormhole with the minefield, because those 2800 ships on top of Dominion forces (which were just being kept at bay) already through would have tipped the balance too far in the Dominion's favour.

Just my own theories of course, but if Starfleet even had only 8000 - 10000 starships, there's no way the Dominion should have been so close to victory.
Okay, Consider this.


Fleets.

1st Fleet
2nd Fleet Mention: Reduced to a Third of strength. Mere elements of this fleet join the take over of DS9.
3rd Fleet Remained behind to protect Earth.
4th Fleet
5th Fleet Mention: Mere elements of this fleet join the take over of DS9( Guarded the Vulcan Border)
6th Fleet Pulled from the Bolian Front. But did not participate in the take over of DS9
7th Fleet Decimated form 112 to 14. Later the Fleet was reported at half strength.
8th Fleet
9th Fleet Never made it Star Base 375 to join the Take over of DS9
10th Fleet Assigned to protect Betazed.

If only "elements" of the Second and Fifth were used and amounted to 625 ships. Then an element can easilly be defined as 300 ships. That's more than the max number of ships we've heard in one Fleet. "112"

Here's where Sisko's terminology gets tricky. "Elements." That's plural. I'd wager that's more than just two elements make up one fleet. And it's unclear if he took one element of both Fleet's or multiple elements of both Fleets. To be conservative let's say that an element represents a third or Fourth. That means each fleet is around 900 or 1,200 ships along.

That's 8,100 to 10,800 ships ALONE! Now there is no way to know if they took a significant amount of those Fleets or took only small poritions. But the way elements is used in the sentence it sounds as if a large amount of the Fleet was left behind. Or that certainly most the Fleet was intact.

To Address why large battle Fleets are not used if they have this number of ships.... Well. Think about this for a moment. What is the purpose of pulling merely elements of Fleets for a major offense rather than the Entire Fleet? It's because the Those Fleets are engaged with Dominion Forces else where in Space. Vulcan for instance is far from Cardassia and So is Earth the Bolian Border. Like I explained before....8,000 light years of Federation Space. Cardassia is a small part of the Border.


You have to assume that if the 9th Fleet or elements of the ninth Fleet had arrived when they could have that they would have come close to 900 ships... That Makes A HECK OF AMOUNT OF SENSE if you're going up against a fleet of 1,200 ships and then if the Klingon's bring 300 ships then the battle is somewhat even....

Sisko didn't plan to go in Outnumbered and Outgunned.
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  #154  
Old 10-20-2008, 10:11 PM
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Ok I can see where you're going with much of that, but in both our estimates there remain a high number of assumptions based on very few hard facts.

Since there's no specific dialogue to say otherwise we don't know that the First, Fourth and Eighth Fleets were not present at the battle. They might have been, they might not have - it's an assumption either way.

We also know that Starfleet employed fighter wings in that battle, and whether they were counted as individual ships or not is again an assumption either way because no dialogue or canon provides insight. My assumption is that they were included individually in that 625 figure

I would say you're correct that the full fleet was not used at the battle, but I think fair amount of it was. At that point, the retaking of DS9 and control of the wormhole was the biggest strategic factor at that point. Even though forces would indeed have been engaged elsewhere. Since it was imperative that the mission succeeded, all possible ships would have been needed to ensure the greatest chance of success.

Another possible clue is the 7th fleet numbers - 112 prior to battle. assume this is a normal figure then 10 times 112 would be 1120 starships. Now that might have been the entire 7th fleet, might have been a percentage of it, again, no hard facts so personal supposition becomes a factor. And if Starfleet had thousands to call upon, why was it only half strength later? At the rate Starfleet was building them per your assessment, it shouldn't have taken long to rebuild it to full strength.

Of course, Sisko also didn't intend to be outnumbered 2 to 1, but I don't think he called in reinforcements, because there were none. He had everything he could lay his hands on. Which, again coupled with the heavy losses, explains why such a large assault in the future always had Klingon, and eventually Romulan support in them. Starfleet was running out of ships as it moved closer to 'What You Leave Behind', fast running out. By the time the war reached that phase there should have been no starship that hadn't been recalled from anywhere they weren't needed, yet the Federation fleet we saw in the final battle was nothing like as massive as the ones we had seen before, particularly the very first shot we saw in the closing moments of the fifth season.

To me, it's because many of those ships had been lost or damaged. That had been the fleet at it's largest, proudest and most pristine. Which also demonstrated in part the cost to Starfleet by the end of the 7th season.

(If I had been writing DS9, I think I would have clarified fleet numbers a bit better!!! It's a very open question, I think!!!!!)
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  #155  
Old 10-21-2008, 10:01 AM
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Ok I can see where you're going with much of that, but in both our estimates there remain a high number of assumptions based on very few hard facts.
I'm Glad. The more I research this thing on the ships it just makes more and more sense, at least to me, that the registry is litteral account of how many ships the Federation has constructed. Why else would Okuda be taking such careful count?

Quote:
Since there's no specific dialogue to say otherwise we don't know that the First, Fourth and Eighth Fleets were not present at the battle. They might have been, they might not have - it's an assumption either way.
Well you're right there is no specific dialogue yet Sisko's proposal to Star Fleet only included thed 2nd the 5th and 9th with back up from Martock. That's what he planned for. We later find that Martock was going to be late and the 9th fleet wasn't going to make it at all. He had to get approval for this force from Star Fleet to get the fleets he did get. I'm going to say that that would have been significant if they assigned some other fleets. I'm betting Sisko called on the closes ships and everyone else was too far away.

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We also know that Starfleet employed fighter wings in that battle, and whether they were counted as individual ships or not is again an assumption either way because no dialogue or canon provides insight. My assumption is that they were included individually in that 625 figure
It's canon to say that no fighter has a registry.
None of the Perigrine or even the Maquis style ships had registry. None was ever sceen. Why? A fighter, shuttle, workbee or travel pod are classifed as support craft. They are assigned to stations or ships. A Large part of this reason is because these vessels don't aren't long range. They require a base ship to opperate from thus,...Janeway's shuttle was station based, and shuttle's have the registry of the ship they are from.

Only up untill the Runnabouts, Type 9 shuttles and the Venture Class Scout did smaller craft begin to have warp drive. The Venture and the Runnabouts are the only small craft that have registry.

Fighters are launchable from Galaxy, Excelsior, and Akira Class Starships. Those are the only ships with a large enough bay to house a Full Wing. Those fighter can't travel as fast as Starships.

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I would say you're correct that the full fleet was not used at the battle, but I think fair amount of it was. At that point, the retaking of DS9 and control of the wormhole was the biggest strategic factor at that point. Even though forces would indeed have been engaged elsewhere. Since it was imperative that the mission succeeded, all possible ships would have been needed to ensure the greatest chance of success.
So do you think it half the fleet or more than half?

Quote:
Another possible clue is the 7th fleet numbers - 112 prior to battle. assume this is a normal figure then 10 times 112 would be 1120 starships. Now that might have been the entire 7th fleet, might have been a percentage of it, again, no hard facts so personal supposition becomes a factor. And if Starfleet had thousands to call upon, why was it only half strength later? At the rate Starfleet was building them per your assessment, it shouldn't have taken long to rebuild it to full strength.
I thought that means that the Fleet was replenished. 112 to 14 ships and later down to half. 14 isn't half of 112 This the only example of a Fleet of ships being almost completely replaced. Either they supplementaled the 7th from other Fleets or... the 14 ships were merely survivor's from one element of the whole fleet or...the fleet was completely replaced.

Quote:
Of course, Sisko also didn't intend to be outnumbered 2 to 1, but I don't think he called in reinforcements, because there were none. He had everything he could lay his hands on. Which, again coupled with the heavy losses, explains why such a large assault in the future always had Klingon, and eventually Romulan support in them. Starfleet was running out of ships as it moved closer to 'What You Leave Behind', fast running out. By the time the war reached that phase there should have been no starship that hadn't been recalled from anywhere they weren't needed, yet the Federation fleet we saw in the final battle was nothing like as massive as the ones we had seen before, particularly the very first shot we saw in the closing moments of the fifth season.
Visuals are deciving I try not to rely on them.
Assuming the Federation did have this contrustion rate at war time 1,500 a year. That would mean only 125 ships a Month. I could find no quote stating they were running out of ships. Only that the Dominion was out producing ships. Later, that if they allowed the Dominion Time they would amass ships and then push again. Federation constructed is still limited to personel though.

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(If I had been writing DS9, I think I would have clarified fleet numbers a bit better!!! It's a very open question, I think!!!!!)
Most definietly Kevin. I would too. This is my best speculation to try and relate the registry with what is seen and said on screen. And I betcha..Most of those ships they were getting off the line were Defiant class ships. Defiant was the first new ship or hero ship to be massed produced since the Galaxy Class and it took almost ten year for them to do it.
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  #156  
Old 10-21-2008, 11:50 AM
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I'm content to ne open minded on the presence of those fleets at the battle, since as we both agree, no hard evidence exists.

But curiously enough I have realised, in regarding the percentage of the fleet at the Battle, on the arbitrary assumption that it was around half the whole fleet (given the vital nature of the victory required) then at 625 starships (for arguments sake I'll also rule out the fighters etc and take it to be full size starships), then double that would be 1250 Starships in the full fleet. Which is actually barely a 10% difference of my earlier estimate of 10 fleets of approx 112 starships, which is a total of 1120. Take into account some recent losses prior to the battle, from First Contact and some starships lost to Dominion forces prior to full war, then I think that actually makes some sense within some of the known facts. With admittedly some open interpretation in there as well!

On the idea of later battles, yes I believe there is no dialogue about Starfleet running out, that's a theory of mine, based on the fact that as the war went on, each of the major battles featured a greater mix of allied ships, and fewer Starfleet ships. Purely on my train of thought, as we know Starfleet was losing a lot of ships at the time, it makes sense that they were not able to replenish the fleet fast enough at that time. Again it's my own supposition but I think given the general story of the Federation being brought to the brink of defeat, the idea they were running out of means to defend themselves is valid, even if dialogue never expressly confirmed it.

Although, I do think 125 new starships a month is actually a very high output rate, that would be 4 to 5 starships per day being completed. Granted there's no evidence to discount it, it just seems very, very fast.

But, as there's nothing to suggest either of us is outright wrong, the truth may be in the middle somewhere!!
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  #157  
Old 10-21-2008, 03:42 PM
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I'm content to ne open minded on the presence of those fleets at the battle, since as we both agree, no hard evidence exists.
Indeed. That would be prudent.

Quote:
But curiously enough I have realised, in regarding the percentage of the fleet at the Battle, on the arbitrary assumption that it was around half the whole fleet (given the vital nature of the victory required) then at 625 starships (for arguments sake I'll also rule out the fighters etc and take it to be full size starships), then double that would be 1250 Starships in the full fleet. Which is actually barely a 10% difference of my earlier estimate of 10 fleets of approx 112 starships, which is a total of 1120. Take into account some recent losses prior to the battle, from First Contact and some starships lost to Dominion forces prior to full war, then I think that actually makes some sense within some of the known facts. With admittedly some open interpretation in there as well!
Full Fleet= 1250 starships
Yes that is fairly close to your previous estimate.

Quote:
On the idea of later battles, yes I believe there is no dialogue about Starfleet running out, that's a theory of mine, based on the fact that as the war went on, each of the major battles featured a greater mix of allied ships, and fewer Starfleet ships. Purely on my train of thought, as we know Starfleet was losing a lot of ships at the time, it makes sense that they were not able to replenish the fleet fast enough at that time. Again it's my own supposition but I think given the general story of the Federation being brought to the brink of defeat, the idea they were running out of means to defend themselves is valid, even if dialogue never expressly confirmed it.

Well if that's true. Then you'd have to consider that the Battle of Chintoka took out an entire fleet that was never replaced. That should have been exactly what the Dominion needed to break through Federation lines if Star Fleet really had so few ships. That would be the second time they lost and entire Fleet. And yet the Dominion never made any concerted effort to penetrate Federation lines and bring the war to an End.

1,250 - 98 ships and minus an entire fleet at your estimates with the chintoka Fleet completely destroyed except for one fleet. (not counting allied ships) brings the Federation Fleet down to 1,040 ships

Half the 7th Fleet was destroyed again. 1,040 - 112= 984
The 2nd Fleet reduced to a third. 984 - 37 = 947

That's something I always thought supported the larger numbers for Fleets.


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Although, I do think 125 new starships a month is actually a very high output rate, that would be 4 to 5 starships per day being completed. Granted there's no evidence to discount it, it just seems very, very fast.
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Think out it in a relative way. Their would be lulls but I thought an average of 4 to 5 a day would be fast.. During peace time I estimated 314 ships a year. 26 ships a month or a ship every two days. But that's the idea that there are several dozen ship yards across the Federation.

But, as there's nothing to suggest either of us is outright wrong, the truth may be in the middle somewhere!!
You are of course correct. Perhaps the future of Trek will reveal the rest.
I'm curently compling a list of ships seen destroyed on scree to compare with both estimates. It should prove intresting but it's a vast amount of information and likely I won't be done for some time.
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  #158  
Old 10-21-2008, 09:52 PM
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Perhaps it's just our respective ways of looking at the numbers, but I think 947 full size starships is still ok, it would represent Starfleet losing around a fifth to a quarter of their entire fleet, which is a significant reduction in strength during such a sustained conflict, and would put pressure on the rest of their forces.

But I'd be very interested to see your results, when you conclude them, to see what your discoveries are!
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  #159  
Old 10-22-2008, 05:07 AM
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I don't know if I can make those inference from the older ships but certainly Defiant and Sovereign were the stars of this particular show. That tractor bounced right off Sovereign's shield. I suspect it has multi phasic and multi spectral shields like Voyager.

I don't know about the Excelsior.
It's such a GREAT ship. I wouldn't be surprised if they were still builiding it over a hundred years later. It's simiple one the best designs out there. But I'm reluctantly agreeing with you. They may have made alot of them but I think it's time to produce something else.

It's obviously the most sucessful design in star trek. But I think the Intrepid superceeds it in innovation. It's time to move on.
Saquist, I belive it would be reasonable of Starfleet to retrofit their older ships with at least Multiphasic Shields. Maybe the design of the launchers for Quantum Torpedoes, or the torpeodes themselves, might preculde them from being utilized on older vessels. Stronger, rotating modulation Phasers, would seem a logical outcome from the first Borg battle at Wolf 359. But, I could find no direct dialouge for this. But what we saw in ST-FC's battle would seem to indicate this.

I find it odd that they the Excelcior Class ship would still be in widespread use 100+ years later. Granted, it is a great design. But it is a design for another era. I would assume you can only retrofit a ship only so much before building another ship is nessicary. I would imagine alot were built, espeically in the suprising wake of the elimination of the Constitution II Starship. But I would highly doubt they would still be built 100+ years later, not with all the desgin and technological advances inbetween those eras.

In addition, seems odd we never saw more Ambassador Class ships, since they are a more recent vintage of ship to the TNG era. As such, they would be easier to retrofit to more modern standards.


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Lady Q, this is really a good point. I'm surprised I haven't thought of it myself. I normally question the need of the Sovereign Class. But this is just as good question. The only reason that I can think of is that Galaxies make for really good distractions and phaser boats on the Front line. But also if there were alot of Planetary take overs then the Galaxy would be the ship called in to retake cities.

But they really did make a lot of Galaxy's and they suffered greatly. I too endorse Defiant over most ships. They're like the Federation's attack ship. They should travel groups of three and massed produced for the next hundred years like the Bird of Prey and the Excelsior have done.

Is Star Fleet down sizing?
I never asked this question. I always assumed they were up sizing because of the Sovereign and Galaxy. But you're right. Prometheus, Intrepid, Defiant, Nova. This is more of a trend, and now the Luna class. All these small ships coming off the line.

It would be smart. I for one am hoping against hope that the movie after this one doesn't deal with war and the Federation. I would like to see some battles in peace time...some skirmishes or perhaps some kind of conflict that doesn't invovle Earth.

We really need a break.
Well, I think the Sovereign was more about making sure the Enterpise was regonizable from the other ships in the films, more than practicality. Besides, even the Sovereign is downsized from the Galaxy. The Sovereign is roughly only about 2/3 the size of the Galaxy, if memory serves.

The Galaxy was designed as a ship of exploration, to carry crew and their families (in that great experiment) to "boldly go." This ship was never meant to be a ship of battle.

Even the Sovereign is designed to be a weapon. I belive the Borg conflicts, and the Dominon War have made Starfleet designs move more towards battle worthiness, than expoloration. Of that ideaology, I have very mixed emotions. Star Trek, at least through the Wolf 359, was about exploration. Seems now it's more about battles, and war.
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  #160  
Old 10-22-2008, 07:00 AM
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Perhaps it's just our respective ways of looking at the numbers, but I think 947 full size starships is still ok, it would represent Starfleet losing around a fifth to a quarter of their entire fleet, which is a significant reduction in strength during such a sustained conflict, and would put pressure on the rest of their forces.
Well it's two years of conflict.
The problem I have with the low end number is... Why didn't the Dominion just send 2,000 ships in the first convoy? That plus the new ship yard construction would have crushed the Federation out right.
Those odds are nearly 2 to 1.

Quote:
But I'd be very interested to see your results, when you conclude them, to see what your discoveries are!
I live for this kind of information. The biggest problem is filtering the destroyed ships from other years than from 2373 -2375. There should probably be two list. One statement and the other visual.
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