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  #21  
Old 05-19-2008, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Akula2ssn View Post
Oh and if you do decide to read Sarek, there are points in the book where Sarek will be thinking about when he first met Amanda and as well as when Spock was a young boy. Among these memories is an incident where Spock went out into the desert and was rescued by Sarek's distant cousin, Selek, who seemed "strangely familiar" to Sarek.

This is a direct reference to the TAS episode, Yesteryear. Selek is actually Spock, who travels back in time through the Guardian of Time. You can read more about it in Memory Alpha.
Sarek is good novel, but you are right in pointing out it's just a good read, nothing more.
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  #22  
Old 05-19-2008, 04:46 AM
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I thought I'd start this topic because there are a few things about Starfleet that I find odd.

First topic: "Let's make it BIGGER!"

In the 23rd Century TOS era it's generally conceded that the Constitution Class is the most powerful ship fielded by the major star nations of the day. D-7s and War Eagles were dangerous but manageable opponents. (The Fesarius doesn't count because it is accepted that whoever the First Federation are, the UFP and the Klingons et al aren't in their league...)

A century later; however, look at how many ships are able to go toe to toe with the Flagship of the Federation! The Romulan Warbird first seen in "The Neutral Zone" is bigger than a Galaxy and the Romulan Commander in "Contagion" felt quite up to handling the Enterprise. The Ferengi don't even really have a centralized government but their Marauders seemed on par with the Enterprise-D. The Sona are considered a minor Star Empire by Dougherty but yet they field two ships capable of pounding the snot out of the Enterprise-E. In the Delta Quadrant the technologically backward Kazon (Who are so inconsequential the Borg won't assimilate them!) who are also another divided people not even using ships of their own design are hitting Voyager with an inordinate amount of firepower for the first couple of seasons.

And of course Shinzon and his Scimitar... Where the heck did this beast come from????? How did they hide it from the Romulan Senate?

People joke about TOS and the way the transporters would be taken out of the picture so Kirk couldn't just shout "Scotty! Save my bacon!" But the writers in later years seemed to have found an equivalent gimmick to create fake drama with the "Oh crud! We can't possibly outfight them! We'll either have to run or bore them to death..."
I think the Scimitar is legimate.
But the Kazon merely pounded Voyager untill they ran out of ships or got through Voyagers shields.

The Romulan War bird was definietely on par and above.

The Sona never got the Enterprise's shhield down below 70 percent, and thats because the Sovereign has regenerative shields. The Enterprise with stood that and then even with out a core continued to fight.

The Mauraders and the Galaxy never went head to head. None of the text i've seen suggest that the ship could have taken the Galaxy.

The Federation has gone through 74,000 ships in in it's short 400 year life time according to Voyagers registry of 74,656. In DS9 Star Fleet has a many as 9 fleets. The most we've seen in a fleet was the 7th Fleet that was mention to be 114 ships. However the lines were very far apartt in terms of distance. There could easilly be more to each fleet. When the attack on Terrok Nor was executed the Federation pulled "elements" of three Fleets from the Front lines to make a force of 600 ships. That would suggest that the Fleets are much larger. One of those fleets was the second fleet which endure heavy losses. We saw that Fleet at the End of Call to Arms and the next season that same fleet is said to be a third of it's original strenght. And again this same Fleet contribute part of it's forces to the 600 ship fleet that took DS9.

So Federation Fleets could not likely be limited to a hundred ships if any significant portion of them went to the DS9 take over. One of those three fleets had to have ships in excess of 500 or a thousand ships maybe more. One things for sure. When Star Fleet had pushed the Dominion back to Cardassia there was no problem in having ships to contain them. the Federation's problem was that Domion ships were typically 3x more powerful than Federation ships.
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  #23  
Old 05-19-2008, 06:51 AM
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This may have been posted before....?
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  #24  
Old 05-19-2008, 09:58 AM
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Thank you Saquist sir that brings up issue two: Numbers.

Original series Kirk says of the Enterprise that there are only 12 like her in the fleet. In TOS when we see one starship lost it is a major happening like the loss of the Constellation. TNG started with this view. The loss of the Yamato is a major event... Then they get into fleets... 40 ships are assembled on the fly to fight at Wolf 359. The loss of this fleet is regarded as shocking even though Shelby says "We'll have the fleet back up in a year." It seems even discounting the loss of lives that the loss of 40 ships was no small matter.

Then we get to the Dominion war and the 7th fleet is regarded as a powerful force. "Think they can stop the Dominion?" 114 ships with I believe 98 lost in battle. The defeat is seen as staggering in terms of losses and that such a powerful force was pasted so thoroughly. Yet by the end we are seeing fleets of three hundred ships and then Martok saying he'll have ( 1600 ?) ships to keep the Dominion off balance while the Feds and Romulans find a way to handle the new Breen weapon and he'll still be outnumbered by I believe 20 to 1.

Now of course we DON'T have anyone discussing sending 10,000 ships to Cardassia Prime so there does seem to have been some limit to the ballooning of fleet sizes yet let's look at a small detail in the registry numbers... And that is the lowest registry number seen used on an active Starfleet vessel in the 24th century. Presumably the oldest ship shown on active duty.

That number is NCC 2544 USS Repulse. By Voyager we're up to NCC 74656, but yet at least only a few years earlier, a ship numbered 72112 places lower is still on active service. Yes it can be argued that the Repulse has simply been incredibly lucky and well kept but still there is a vast fleet between Repulse and Voyager.

Or IS there? If we were to assume that even a tenth of this number were online that's over 7,000 starships! The losses at Wolf 359 would hardly be a scratch in terms of ship losses and the Klingons would not likely attack the Federation knowing that they faced those odds. Remember that the relief force sent to DS9 when Gowron's fleet attacked was ONLY six starships and yet the arrival of that force seemed to weigh in Gowron's thoughts... What if Star Fleet sent a whole ONE Percent of a Seven thousand ship fleet to ward off the Chancellor of the Klingon Empire?

So that seems to suggest that either the Federation has lost or used up a HUGE number of ships even prior to the Dominion War or that these numbers are inflated by large numbers of service craft.

I think that the argument has been made clear that Runabouts (And with all respect Saquist sir... I cannot recall whether the concept of Runabouts was new in Star Fleet or just the Danube class was the new model?) are on the registry list because they are Warp capable and not strictly dependent upon a mothership as a shuttlecraft is.

Let's look back for comparable craft... We find Spock's transport in TMP. She's a Warp capable diplomatic courier and I have no doubt Spock used all the leverage and logic he could to get her for the mission of rendezvousing with the Enterprise. But that ship seems a rare commodity in the 23rd century. The reason? It seems that Warp Engines for use on a craft that small are a rare thing until much later.

How much later? Well in the Registry numbers, The newer Generation of ships typified by the Galaxy and Nebula classes seem to be consistently in the 60-70XXX range while the Ambassador class which seems to have been top of the line 25-30 years earlier are consistently in the 26XXX ranges. (Zhukov was listed as 62- something. It was later stated that this was an error like the Ersatz Yamato in "Where Silence Has Lease" being given the number of NCC-1305-E)

So that indicates the BULK of this building is in the 30 years prior to TNG. Best theory I can concoct is that the Registry numbers are going up so sharply in response to developments in the field of Small Warp Engines. The first seem to appear about the time of TOS but they aren't exactly cheap. I think we see plateaus in ship building where each breakthrough in developing small reliable and cheap to produce and operate Warp Engines leads to Warp capability being given to craft that in years past would be impulse and in system only.
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  #25  
Old 05-19-2008, 10:04 AM
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Good train of thought there.
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  #26  
Old 05-19-2008, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Yagami Crewman View Post
Thank you Saquist sir that brings up issue two: Numbers.

Original series Kirk says of the Enterprise that there are only 12 like her in the fleet. In TOS when we see one starship lost it is a major happening like the loss of the Constellation. TNG started with this view. The loss of the Yamato is a major event... Then they get into fleets... 40 ships are assembled on the fly to fight at Wolf 359. The loss of this fleet is regarded as shocking even though Shelby says "We'll have the fleet back up in a year." It seems even discounting the loss of lives that the loss of 40 ships was no small matter.

Then we get to the Dominion war and the 7th fleet is regarded as a powerful force. "Think they can stop the Dominion?" 114 ships with I believe 98 lost in battle. The defeat is seen as staggering in terms of losses and that such a powerful force was pasted so thoroughly. Yet by the end we are seeing fleets of three hundred ships and then Martok saying he'll have ( 1600 ?) ships to keep the Dominion off balance while the Feds and Romulans find a way to handle the new Breen weapon and he'll still be outnumbered by I believe 20 to 1.

Now of course we DON'T have anyone discussing sending 10,000 ships to Cardassia Prime so there does seem to have been some limit to the ballooning of fleet sizes yet let's look at a small detail in the registry numbers... And that is the lowest registry number seen used on an active Starfleet vessel in the 24th century. Presumably the oldest ship shown on active duty.

That number is NCC 2544 USS Repulse. By Voyager we're up to NCC 74656, but yet at least only a few years earlier, a ship numbered 72112 places lower is still on active service. Yes it can be argued that the Repulse has simply been incredibly lucky and well kept but still there is a vast fleet between Repulse and Voyager.

Or IS there? If we were to assume that even a tenth of this number were online that's over 7,000 starships! The losses at Wolf 359 would hardly be a scratch in terms of ship losses and the Klingons would not likely attack the Federation knowing that they faced those odds. Remember that the relief force sent to DS9 when Gowron's fleet attacked was ONLY six starships and yet the arrival of that force seemed to weigh in Gowron's thoughts... What if Star Fleet sent a whole ONE Percent of a Seven thousand ship fleet to ward off the Chancellor of the Klingon Empire?

So that seems to suggest that either the Federation has lost or used up a HUGE number of ships even prior to the Dominion War or that these numbers are inflated by large numbers of service craft.

I think that the argument has been made clear that Runabouts (And with all respect Saquist sir... I cannot recall whether the concept of Runabouts was new in Star Fleet or just the Danube class was the new model?) are on the registry list because they are Warp capable and not strictly dependent upon a mothership as a shuttlecraft is.

Let's look back for comparable craft... We find Spock's transport in TMP. She's a Warp capable diplomatic courier and I have no doubt Spock used all the leverage and logic he could to get her for the mission of rendezvousing with the Enterprise. But that ship seems a rare commodity in the 23rd century. The reason? It seems that Warp Engines for use on a craft that small are a rare thing until much later.

How much later? Well in the Registry numbers, The newer Generation of ships typified by the Galaxy and Nebula classes seem to be consistently in the 60-70XXX range while the Ambassador class which seems to have been top of the line 25-30 years earlier are consistently in the 26XXX ranges. (Zhukov was listed as 62- something. It was later stated that this was an error like the Ersatz Yamato in "Where Silence Has Lease" being given the number of NCC-1305-E)

So that indicates the BULK of this building is in the 30 years prior to TNG. Best theory I can concoct is that the Registry numbers are going up so sharply in response to developments in the field of Small Warp Engines. The first seem to appear about the time of TOS but they aren't exactly cheap. I think we see plateaus in ship building where each breakthrough in developing small reliable and cheap to produce and operate Warp Engines leads to Warp capability being given to craft that in years past would be impulse and in system only.
Or that the Repulse is sitting in a fleet museum. I would imagine there is alot of "non active duty vessels" in a fleet museum. In a Dominon War style situation I can se them pulling any ship they can get. So i imagine it get a rapid retrorfit, and pushed back into service.

I allwasy took Shelby's statement to mean that alot of those ships "lost" at Wolf 359 would be salvageable, and be able to be put back into service.

I think Martok was overstating a bit, in true Klingon fashion, but 1600 is possible if there's fighter type craft, support craft, ect. You have the Feds, the Romulans, and the Klingons, and I am sure any unallied worlds or system they could get to help (Which could have been a considerable number.)

I would imagine that for any new class there is a set of registry numbers, to keep it from being confused I a big fleet when eyeballing (Why you'd ever need to do that I am not sure.) but it would save confusion for record keeping.

Ok, for example, we have the Chicken Class of ships, Starfleet has set aside 77000-77200 for this class as possible regitry numbers. So the USS Chicken would be 77000, and so on. The next Class of ships might Start with 82000, no real sequential order, just to keep form too much confusion with too many numbers in registries too close togter. The number starts sprading out after the advent of the Excelsior Class. maybe they decisded that spreading out the number was the way to go?

Then you get into reissued registry numbers, I would assume this to honor a ship or person...again. So you could have the USS Chicken 77000, and the next ship be a reissue like USS Abraham Lincon NCC-1864-F (Letter usually denaotes how many times this registry number's been reused.)

Spock's transport was a Vulcan one (Probably civilian/For Hire) and not subject to the Starfleet requirements of registering. It is obviously not a Federation, or Starfleet transport.

I also would assume, as you pointed out with the Danube Class Runabout, any lasting warp cabable vessel, that did not need immediate support of a bigger vessel, would be considered a ship in it's own right, regaurdelsss of size, and recivce a NCC registry number.
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  #27  
Old 05-19-2008, 12:03 PM
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  #28  
Old 05-19-2008, 12:41 PM
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Or that the Repulse is sitting in a fleet museum. I would imagine there is alot of "non active duty vessels" in a fleet museum. In a Dominon War style situation I can se them pulling any ship they can get. So i imagine it get a rapid retrorfit, and pushed back into service.

I allwasy took Shelby's statement to mean that alot of those ships "lost" at Wolf 359 would be salvageable, and be able to be put back into service.

I think Martok was overstating a bit, in true Klingon fashion, but 1600 is possible if there's fighter type craft, support craft, ect. You have the Feds, the Romulans, and the Klingons, and I am sure any unallied worlds or system they could get to help (Which could have been a considerable number.)

I would imagine that for any new class there is a set of registry numbers, to keep it from being confused I a big fleet when eyeballing (Why you'd ever need to do that I am not sure.) but it would save confusion for record keeping.

Ok, for example, we have the Chicken Class of ships, Starfleet has set aside 77000-77200 for this class as possible regitry numbers. So the USS Chicken would be 77000, and so on. The next Class of ships might Start with 82000, no real sequential order, just to keep form too much confusion with too many numbers in registries too close togter. The number starts sprading out after the advent of the Excelsior Class. maybe they decisded that spreading out the number was the way to go?

Then you get into reissued registry numbers, I would assume this to honor a ship or person...again. So you could have the USS Chicken 77000, and the next ship be a reissue like USS Abraham Lincon NCC-1864-F (Letter usually denaotes how many times this registry number's been reused.)

Spock's transport was a Vulcan one (Probably civilian/For Hire) and not subject to the Starfleet requirements of registering. It is obviously not a Federation, or Starfleet transport.

I also would assume, as you pointed out with the Danube Class Runabout, any lasting warp cabable vessel, that did not need immediate support of a bigger vessel, would be considered a ship in it's own right, regaurdelsss of size, and recivce a NCC registry number.
Okay... let's take this point by point.

The Repulse in year 2365 is clearly an active duty ship. She's Pulaski's last posting before the Enterprise and they do rendezvous in Deep Space.

As for Shelby's statement... Well it could have been but The Saratoga isn't coming back that way and from the looks of the debris... Lot's of the others are out of it... (I'd hate to try repairing the Melbourne in a year's time... ) Point is At the time it seemed like a big deal to rebuild the loss of 40 ships whereas later 40 ships seems like nothing.

Martok was only talking about Klingon designs because the Feds and Roms are still helpless against the Breen weapon. He may have been exagerating but if he was then 20-1 doesn't sound much better than 30-1 odds. But again I think the point is that whether 1,600 or 1,100 That's a lot of ships UNLESS we are including Warp capable ships that we would not readily consider real Starships.

The idea of reserved Registry numbers is an old one going back to Franz Joseph's Tech Manual but it is iffy since you might build several blocks of the same design at separate times. This can be confusing if you are using registry numbers as any kind of sorting system. NCC-2000 is Excelsior. NCC 2544 is also Excelsior class. But NCC 2593 is the Stargazer and the Victory is 97XX, both Constellation series. Now Hood is 42XXX, probably one of the last Excelsiors off the line. As for Aplpha designators it seems very rare indeed but causes no problems.

Spock's transport... I only mention that to introduce the discussion of small warp engines capable of powering a ship that would fit the criteria suggested as why the runabouts are listed in the registry. (Note also that by DS9, runabout production is pretty quick. Jadzia's plan to tractor another runabout at speed where Kira worries the ship won't hold up: "Depends if they were having a good day at the yard...") In 23rd century the engines exist but do not seem cheap a century later they are abounding. Again why we go slow up to NCC 2000 but then suddenly have a rapid explosion.

As warp engines become easier to build and maintain it's like the accessories on your car... think of things that in your dad's car would have been special options but today you would be surprised NOT to find them... So over time it became only natural to build a tug that for its roll would once have been an in system only ship with impulse drive but now you build it with these small cheap warp engines because there is no reason not to and hey you might need it in the next system over sometime...

So I think the crux is that while Star Fleet may have commissioned 80,000 warp capable independent craft... It seems unlikely that more than a fraction would entail what we would think of as Starships. Just as while a Piper Cub and a 747 are both airplanes, when you talk about mass air transport your mind thinks of 747's but not Piper Cubs.
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  #29  
Old 05-19-2008, 01:42 PM
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Should also keep in mind that not all ships with a NCC registry are primary combatants. Freighters, transports, science ships, supply ships, and other non-combatants in Star Fleet are also given NCC registries. These ships can easily make up at least 50% of the total fleet.
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Last edited by Akula2ssn : 05-19-2008 at 01:50 PM.
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  #30  
Old 05-19-2008, 02:20 PM
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AHA! I've figured it all out...!

NCC stands for 'Nobody Can Count'!

(*Grin*)
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